Genealogie Wylie » Richilde Countess von Egisheim (± 1030-????)

Persoonlijke gegevens Richilde Countess von Egisheim 

• Ook bekend als Richilde Countess of Hainault.
• Zij is geboren rond 1030 in Eguisheim, Haute-Rhin, Alsace, France.Bronnen 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
• Zij is overleden op 15 maart 1086/1087 in Mechelen, Flemish Region, Belgium.Bronnen 4, 5, 12, 13
• Zij is begraven in Abbey of Hasnon, Belgium.
• Een kind van Gerard I Count von Egisheim en Petronilla of Verdun
• Deze gegevens zijn voor het laatst bijgewerkt op 20 juni 2009.

Gezin van Richilde Countess von Egisheim

(1) Zij is getrouwd met Herman Count of Hainault.

Zij zijn getrouwd te 1st husband.Bron 14

(2) Zij is getrouwd met Baldwin VI (I of Hainault) Count of Flanders.

Zij zijn getrouwd in het jaar 1055 te Of, Hainaut, Belgium.Bronnen 7, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

Kind(eren):

1. Baldwin II Count of Hanault  1056-1098 

(3) Zij is getrouwd met William ADDED FitzOsbern.

Zij zijn getrouwd voor 1071 te 3rd husband 2nd wife.Bronnen 14, 20

Notities over Richilde Countess von Egisheim

From the database " Phillip, Weber, Kirk & Staggs Families of the Pacific Norhwest on Rootsweb WorldConnect by Jim Weber:

He [William FitzOsbern] married, 2ndly shortly before his death, Richilde, widow of Baldwin (VI), COUNT OF FLANDERS, and previously, as is stated, of Herman, COUNT OF HAINAULT, daughter and heir of the Count of Egisheim [Alsace]. The Earl died as aforesaid in 1071, and was buried in the Abbey of Cormeilles, which he had also founded. His widow appears to have died 15 March 1086/7. She was buried with her 2nd husband in the Abbey of Hasnon, which they had founded. [Complete Peerage VI:447-9, XIV:380, (transcribed by Dave Utzinger)]Note: I am making her daughter of Gerard Count of Egisheim (as her name implies), but she could be daughter of any of Gerard's brothers or sisters. The only "sure" thing is that she is niece of Pope Leo IX (and some people think that the "sure" thing is wrong).Note that Turton has Richilde was daughter of Regnier V Count of Hainault by Maud of Lorraine. This is a common mistake, but that ancestry actually belonged to Richilde's 1st husband who was Count of Hainault and died without issue. Even though there were blood related heirs for Hermann Count of Hainault, Richilde's 2nd husband forced/pressured the title to be given to her & to him as her 2nd husband. It was this "inheriting" of the title that led many early researchers to assume that Richilde was the daughter and heir of the Count of Hainult.---------------------Below are three postings to SGM (Peter Stewart, Todd Farmerie, & Thierry Stasser (the noted French genealogist, translated from French by Todd Farmerie)), in response to a query from myself, concerning the ancestry of Richilde (I apologized for misspelling "FitzOsbern" in the subject):From: Peter Stewart (p_m_stewart AT msn.com)Subject: Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of HerefordNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.medievalDate: 2004-01-10 18:06:17 PSTjimweber AT nwintl.com (Jim Weber) wrote in message news:...> Dear Newsgroup,> > Hope the new year is finding you well.> > CP VI:447-9 states that William FitzOsbern's 2nd wife was "Richilde,> widow of Baldwin (VI), Count of Flanders, and previously, as is> stated, of Herman, Count of Hainault, da. and h. of Renier, Count of> Mons, in Hainault."> > This was changed by CP XIV:380 to read "Richilde, widow of Baldwin> (VI), COUNT OF FLANDERS, and previously, as is stated, of Herman,> COUNT OF HAINAULT, daughter and heir of the Count of Egisheim> [Alsace]."> > However I was just going through some of Leo van de Pas' data base at> www.genealogics.org, and Leo, citing "Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A.> Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: II> 5", has "Richilde, Heiress of Hainault" as daughter and sole heir of> Reginar V, Count of Hainault, by Matilde de Lorraine (AKA. Regnier V &> Mathilde de Verdun per AR). This would imply that her first husband> Herman Count of Hainault was count in right of his wife Richilde> (Leo/ES gives no ancestry or other info on Herman). This also fits> more closely with the original citation from CP (at least Mons is in> Hainault and the names are similar).> > Does anyone know anything about these discrepancies?The origin of Richilde has been debated for a long time & I'm not sure that any consensus has been reached yet.Hermann is usually thought to have been count of Hainault in his own right, as son of Count Reginar V (died ca 1039/40) by Mathilde of Verdun (usually said to have been daughter of Hermann, count of Verdun, explaining this given name).He was apparently father of two children, both without issue, a son who became a bishop and a daughter who was a nun.Richilde remarried in the early 1050s to Balduin VI of Flanders, and the main complication sets in because offspring of this union inherited Hainault, evidently through their mother and in preference to any relatives of Hermann.This could be out-of-date: according to my notes from many years ago, when I last gave attention to it, the matter was exhaustively discussed by Walter Mohr in 'Richilde vom Hennegau und Robert der Friese: Thesen zu einer Neubewertung der Quellen' in _Revue belge de philologie et d'histoire_ 58 (1980) & 59 (1981). Many university libraries would hold this journal.I expect a good deal of ink has flowed on the subject since then too but, if so, happily it has by-passed me.Peter Stewart- - - - - - - - - - -From: Todd A. Farmerie (farmerie AT interfold.com)Subject: Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of HerefordNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.medievalDate: 2004-01-10 19:13:10 PSTJim Weber wrote: > Does anyone know anything about these discrepancies?Yes. ES has misled Leo. Richilde was widow of Herman, Count of Hainault, which Herman was son of Regnier. It was as widow of Herman (who d.s.p.) that she brought Hainault to her second husband, even though she had no blood claim to it. I don't known where CP got the speculation that she was daughter of a Count of Egisheim, but it is correct that whe was not daughter of the prior Counts of Hainault.taf- - - - - - - - - - -From: Todd A. Farmerie (farmerie AT interfold.com)Subject: Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of Hereford Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medievalDate: 2004-01-11 08:30:42 PSTThierry Stasser wrote:> sorry the answer is in French, but it is part of a paper on the Counts of> Hainaut which is written in French , so it would take too long to translate> it in EnglishNo problem - I will just summarize for the English-only crowd.> Bien que certains chroniqueurs médiévaux fassent de Richilde, l¹épouse du> comte Herman, la fille héritière de Régnier V et son époux Herman un comte> d¹origine germanique.(Chron. Albrici, pp. 785, 789, 792; Gilles d¹Orval, MGH> SS XXV, p. 79), While some medieval chroniclers make Richilde daughter of Regnier and her husband Herman a germanic count . . .> il est certain que Herman était l¹héritier de Régnier V> (Gislebert de Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense, éd. L. Vanderkindere, Bruxelles,> 1904, p. 3; Lambert de Hersfeld, Annales Hersfeldenses, MGH SRG 1894, p.> 125). it is clear that Herman was Regnier's heir.> Une charte datée des années 1024/1039 mentionne en effet Régnier V et> son fils Herman (Van Overstraeten, pp. 502-503). A charter names Regnier and his son Herman.> On ne connaît pas les> origines familiales de la comtesse. On sait qu¹elle était la nièce du pape> Léon IX (Flandria Generosa, MGH SS IX, p. 320: ...eiusdem Richildis avunculo> ...) et qu¹elle était de sang impérial (Cont. Aquicinctina, p. 553:> Richildem quae erat de sanguine imperiali ...).As to Richilde, she was niece of Pope Leo IX, and of imperial blood.> Le pape Léon IX était né Bruno d¹Eguisheim, fils du comte Hugues IV et> d¹Helvide (Wibert, Vita Leonis, éd. I. M. Watterich, Pontificum romanorum> vitae, t. 1er, Leipzig, 1862, p. 128). Leo IX was born Bruno d'Eguisheim, son of Count Hugh IV and Helvide.> On lui connait avec certitude deux> frères, Gérard et Hugues (J. D. Schoepflin, Alsatia ... Diplomatica, t. 1er,> Mannheim, 1772, n° 207, p. 163), ainsi que plusieurs soeurs:He has two know brothers, Gerard and Hugh, and sisters:> Gerberge, abbesse de Nuys (L. Viellard, Documents et mémoires pour servir à> l¹histoire du Territoire de Belfort, Besançon, 1884, p. 115);> l¹épouse du comte Adalbert de Calw (Annalista Saxo,p. 687);> peut être Hildegarde, mère de Louis de Mousson Montbéliard (F. Vollmer, Die> Etichonen. Ein Beitrag zur Frage der Kontinuität früher Adelsfamilien,> Studien und vorarbeiten zur geschichte des grossfrankische und frühdeutschen> Adels, éd. G. Tellenbach, Fribourg, 1957, p. 182; pour les sources voir> Viellard, pp. 12-13; Schoepflin, n° 680, p. 477).Gerberge, Abbess of Nuys; the wife of Adelbert de Calw; and Hildegarde, mother of Louis de Mousson-Montbeliard.> Albert de Stade, Annales Stadenses, MGH SS XIV, p. 319, donne encore à Léon> IX une autre soeur en la personne de Gertrude, femme de Liudolphe de> Brunswick. Cette identification a cependant été mise en doute et on penche> plutôt à l¹identifier à la fille d¹un comte Egbert (H. Jakobs, Der Adel in> der Klosterreform von St. Blasien, Cologne-Graz, 1968, p. 204; E.> Hlawitschka, Untersuchungen zu den Thronwechseln der ersten Hälfte des 11> Jahrhunderts und zur Adelsgeschichte Süddeutschlands, Sigmaringen, 1987, pp.> 144-148; P. Corbet, L¹autel portatif de la comtesse Gertrude de Brunswick,> Cahiers de Civilisation Médiévale, 34, 1991, p. 103) .Albert de Stade give another sister, Gertrude, daughter of Liudolf of Brunswick, but this is doubtful, as she is identified as daughter of a Count Egbert.> Compte tenu de l¹état de nos sources, il est impossible d¹attribuer la> paternité ou la maternité de Richilde à un plutôt qu¹à un autre des frères> et soeurs de Léon IX. With the sources available, there is no reason to favor one sibling over another as parent of Richilde.> H. Pirenne, Richilde, Biographie Nationale de> Belgique, 19, 1907, col. 294, suggère d¹en faire une fille de Roger, frère> d¹Arnoul de Valenciennes. H. Pirenne suggested she was daughter of Roger, brother of Arnoul de Valenciennes.> Sur la comtesse Richilde, voir K. S. Nicholas,> Countesses as Rulers in Flanders, Aristocratic Women in Medieval France, éd.> T. Evergates, Philadelphia, 1999, pp. 115-117.See this source for details on Richilde.> Richilde se remaria à Baudouin VI de Flandre (= Baudouin I de Hainaut) en> 1051 selon les Ann. Elnonenses, p. 156; Ann. Laubienses, p. 20; Ann.> Leodienses, p. 20; Jacques de Guise , p. 188. Elle mourut en 1086 et fut> inhumée dans l¹église de Hasnon (Jacques de Guise, p. 195).She remarried Baldwin VI of Flanders (I of Hainaut) in 1051 and died 1086, buried at Hasnon.taf

He [William FitzOsbern] married, 2ndly shortly before his death,Richilde, widow of Baldwin (VI), COUNT OF FLANDERS, and previously, as isstated, of Herman, COUNT OF HAINAULT, daughter and heir of the Count ofEgisheim [Alsace]. The Earl died as aforesaid in 1071, and was buried inthe Abbey of Cormeilles, which he had also founded. His widow appears tohave died 15 March 1086/7. She was buried with her 2nd husband in theAbbey of Hasnon, which they had founded. [Complete Peerage VI:447-9,XIV:380, (transcribed by Dave Utzinger)]

Note: I am making her daughter of Gerard Count of Egisheim (as her nameimplies), but she could be daughter of any of Gerard's brothers orsisters. The only "sure" thing is that she is niece of Pope Leo IX (andsome people think that the "sure" thing is wrong).

Note that Turton has Richilde was daughter of Regnier V Count of Hainaultby Maud of Lorraine. This is a common mistake, but that ancestryactually belonged to Richilde's 1st husband who was Count of Hainault anddied without issue. Even though there were blood related heirs forHermann Count of Hainault, Richilde's 2nd husband forced/pressured thetitle to be given to her & to him as her 2nd husband. It was this"inheriting" of the title that led many early researchers to assume thatRichilde was the daughter and heir of the Count of Hainult.

---------------------

Below are three postings to SGM (Peter Stewart, Todd Farmerie, & ThierryStasser (the noted French genealogist, translated from French by ToddFarmerie)), in response to a query from myself, concerning the ancestryof Richilde (I apologized for misspelling "FitzOsbern" in the subject):

From: Peter Stewart ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX))
Subject: Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of Hereford
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2004-01-10 18:06:17 PST

(XXXXX@XXXX.XXX) (Jim Weber) wrote in messagenews:<(XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)ogle.com>...
> Dear Newsgroup,
>
> Hope the new year is finding you well.
>
> CP VI:447-9 states that William FitzOsbern's 2nd wife was "Richilde,
> widow of Baldwin (VI), Count of Flanders, and previously, as is
> stated, of Herman, Count of Hainault, da. and h. of Renier, Count of
> Mons, in Hainault."
>
> This was changed by CP XIV:380 to read "Richilde, widow of Baldwin
> (VI), COUNT OF FLANDERS, and previously, as is stated, of Herman,
> COUNT OF HAINAULT, daughter and heir of the Count of Egisheim
> [Alsace]."
>
> However I was just going through some of Leo van de Pas' data base at
> www.genealogics.org, and Leo, citing "Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A.
> Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: II
> 5", has "Richilde, Heiress of Hainault" as daughter and sole heir of
> Reginar V, Count of Hainault, by Matilde de Lorraine (AKA. Regnier V &
> Mathilde de Verdun per AR). This would imply that her first husband
> Herman Count of Hainault was count in right of his wife Richilde
> (Leo/ES gives no ancestry or other info on Herman). This also fits
> more closely with the original citation from CP (at least Mons is in
> Hainault and the names are similar).
>
> Does anyone know anything about these discrepancies?

The origin of Richilde has been debated for a long time & I'm not surethat any consensus has been reached yet.

Hermann is usually thought to have been count of Hainault in his ownright, as son of Count Reginar V (died ca 1039/40) by Mathilde of Verdun(usually said to have been daughter of Hermann, count of Verdun,explaining this given name).

He was apparently father of two children, both without issue, a son whobecame a bishop and a daughter who was a nun.

Richilde remarried in the early 1050s to Balduin VI of Flanders, and themain complication sets in because offspring of this union inheritedHainault, evidently through their mother and in preference to anyrelatives of Hermann.

This could be out-of-date: according to my notes from many years ago,when I last gave attention to it, the matter was exhaustively discussedby Walter Mohr in 'Richilde vom Hennegau und Robert der Friese: Thesen zueiner Neubewertung der Quellen' in _Revue belge de philologie etd'histoire_ 58 (1980) & 59 (1981). Many university libraries would holdthis journal.

I expect a good deal of ink has flowed on the subject since then too but,if so, happily it has by-passed me.

Peter Stewart

- - - - - - - - - - -

From: Todd A. Farmerie ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX))
Subject: Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of Hereford
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2004-01-10 19:13:10 PST

Jim Weber wrote:
> Does anyone know anything about these discrepancies?

Yes. ES has misled Leo. Richilde was widow of Herman, Count ofHainault, which Herman was son of Regnier. It was as widow of Herman(who d.s.p.) that she brought Hainault to her second husband, even thoughshe had no blood claim to it. I don't known where CP got the speculationthat she was daughter of a Count of Egisheim, but it is correct that whewas not daughter of the prior Counts of Hainault.

taf

- - - - - - - - - - -

From: Todd A. Farmerie ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX))
Subject: Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of Hereford
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2004-01-11 08:30:42 PST

Thierry Stasser wrote:
> sorry the answer is in French, but it is part of a paper on the Countsof
> Hainaut which is written in French , so it would take too long totranslate
> it in English

No problem - I will just summarize for the English-only crowd.

> Bien que certains chroniqueurs médiévaux fassent de Richilde, l¹épousedu
> comte Herman, la fille héritière de Régnier V et son époux Herman uncomte
> d¹origine germanique.(Chron. Albrici, pp. 785, 789, 792; Gillesd¹Orval, MGH
> SS XXV, p. 79),

While some medieval chroniclers make Richilde daughter of Regnier and herhusband Herman a germanic count . . .

> il est certain que Herman était l¹héritier de Régnier V
> (Gislebert de Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense, éd. L. Vanderkindere,Bruxelles,
> 1904, p. 3; Lambert de Hersfeld, Annales Hersfeldenses, MGH SRG 1894, p.
> 125).

it is clear that Herman was Regnier's heir.

> Une charte datée des années 1024/1039 mentionne en effet Régnier V et
> son fils Herman (Van Overstraeten, pp. 502-503).

A charter names Regnier and his son Herman.

> On ne connaît pas les
> origines familiales de la comtesse. On sait qu¹elle était la nièce dupape
> Léon IX (Flandria Generosa, MGH SS IX, p. 320: ...eiusdem Richildisavunculo
> ...) et qu¹elle était de sang impérial (Cont. Aquicinctina, p. 553:
> Richildem quae erat de sanguine imperiali ...).

As to Richilde, she was niece of Pope Leo IX, and of imperial blood.

> Le pape Léon IX était né Bruno d¹Eguisheim, fils du comte Hugues IV et
> d¹Helvide (Wibert, Vita Leonis, éd. I. M. Watterich, Pontificumromanorum
> vitae, t. 1er, Leipzig, 1862, p. 128).

Leo IX was born Bruno d'Eguisheim, son of Count Hugh IV and Helvide.

> On lui connait avec certitude deux
> frères, Gérard et Hugues (J. D. Schoepflin, Alsatia ... Diplomatica, t.1er,
> Mannheim, 1772, n° 207, p. 163), ainsi que plusieurs soeurs:

He has two know brothers, Gerard and Hugh, and sisters:

> Gerberge, abbesse de Nuys (L. Viellard, Documents et mémoires pourservir à
> l¹histoire du Territoire de Belfort, Besançon, 1884, p. 115);
> l¹épouse du comte Adalbert de Calw (Annalista Saxo,p. 687);
> peut être Hildegarde, mère de Louis de Mousson Montbéliard (F. Vollmer,Die
> Etichonen. Ein Beitrag zur Frage der Kontinuität früher Adelsfamilien,
> Studien und vorarbeiten zur geschichte des grossfrankische undfrühdeutschen
> Adels, éd. G. Tellenbach, Fribourg, 1957, p. 182; pour les sources voir
> Viellard, pp. 12-13; Schoepflin, n° 680, p. 477).

Gerberge, Abbess of Nuys; the wife of Adelbert de Calw; and Hildegarde,mother of Louis de Mousson-Montbeliard.

> Albert de Stade, Annales Stadenses, MGH SS XIV, p. 319, donne encore àLéon
> IX une autre soeur en la personne de Gertrude, femme de Liudolphe de
> Brunswick. Cette identification a cependant été mise en doute et onpenche
> plutôt à l¹identifier à la fille d¹un comte Egbert (H. Jakobs, Der Adelin
> der Klosterreform von St. Blasien, Cologne-Graz, 1968, p. 204; E.
> Hlawitschka, Untersuchungen zu den Thronwechseln der ersten Hälfte des11
> Jahrhunderts und zur Adelsgeschichte Süddeutschlands, Sigmaringen,1987, pp.
> 144-148; P. Corbet, L¹autel portatif de la comtesse Gertrude deBrunswick,
> Cahiers de Civilisation Médiévale, 34, 1991, p. 103) .

Albert de Stade give another sister, Gertrude, daughter of Liudolf ofBrunswick, but this is doubtful, as she is identified as daughter of aCount Egbert.

> Compte tenu de l¹état de nos sources, il est impossible d¹attribuer la
> paternité ou la maternité de Richilde à un plutôt qu¹à un autre desfrères
> et soeurs de Léon IX.

With the sources available, there is no reason to favor one sibling overanother as parent of Richilde.

> H. Pirenne, Richilde, Biographie Nationale de
> Belgique, 19, 1907, col. 294, suggère d¹en faire une fille de Roger,frère
> d¹Arnoul de Valenciennes.

H. Pirenne suggested she was daughter of Roger, brother of Arnoul deValenciennes.

> Sur la comtesse Richilde, voir K. S. Nicholas,
> Countesses as Rulers in Flanders, Aristocratic Women in MedievalFrance, éd.
> T. Evergates, Philadelphia, 1999, pp. 115-117.

See this source for details on Richilde.

> Richilde se remaria à Baudouin VI de Flandre (= Baudouin I de Hainaut)en
> 1051 selon les Ann. Elnonenses, p. 156; Ann. Laubienses, p. 20; Ann.
> Leodienses, p. 20; Jacques de Guise , p. 188. Elle mourut en 1086 et fut
> inhumée dans l¹église de Hasnon (Jacques de Guise, p. 195).

She remarried Baldwin VI of Flanders (I of Hainaut) in 1051 and died1086, buried at Hasnon.

taf

He [William FitzOsbern] married, 2ndly shortly before his death, Richilde, widow of Baldwin (VI), COUNT OF FLANDERS, and previously, as is stated, of Herman, COUNT OF HAINAULT, daughter and heir of the Count of Egisheim [Alsace]. The Earl died as aforesaid in 1071, and was buried in the Abbey of Cormeilles, which he had also founded. His widow appears to have died 15 March 1086/7. She was buried with her 2nd husband in the Abbey of Hasnon, which they had founded. [Complete Peerage VI:447-9, XIV:380, (transcribed by Dave Utzinger)]Note: I am making her daughter of Gerard Count of Egisheim (as her name implies), but she could be daughter of any of Gerard's brothers or sisters. The only "sure" thing is that she is niece of Pope Leo IX (and some people think that the "sure" thing is wrong).Note that Turton has Richilde was daughter of Regnier V Count of Hainault by Maud of Lorraine. This is a common mistake, but that ancestry actually belonged to Richilde's 1st husband who was Count of Hainault and died without issue. Even though there were blood related heirs for Hermann Count of Hainault, Richilde's 2nd husband forced/pressured the title to be given to her & to him as her 2nd husband. It was this "inheriting" of the title that led many early researchers to assume that Richilde was the daughter and heir of the Count of Hainult.---------------------Below are three postings to SGM (Peter Stewart, Todd Farmerie, & Thierry Stasser (the noted French genealogist, translated from French by Todd Farmerie)), in response to a query from myself, concerning the ancestry of Richilde (I apologized for misspelling "FitzOsbern" in the subject):From: Peter Stewart (p_m_stewart AT msn.com)Subject: Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of HerefordNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.medievalDate: 2004-01-10 18:06:17 PSTjimweber AT nwintl.com (Jim Weber) wrote in message news:...> Dear Newsgroup,> > Hope the new year is finding you well.> > CP VI:447-9 states that William FitzOsbern's 2nd wife was "Richilde,> widow of Baldwin (VI), Count of Flanders, and previously, as is> stated, of Herman, Count of Hainault, da. and h. of Renier, Count of> Mons, in Hainault."> > This was changed by CP XIV:380 to read "Richilde, widow of Baldwin> (VI), COUNT OF FLANDERS, and previously, as is stated, of Herman,> COUNT OF HAINAULT, daughter and heir of the Count of Egisheim> [Alsace]."> > However I was just going through some of Leo van de Pas' data base at> www.genealogics.org, and Leo, citing "Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A.> Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: II> 5", has "Richilde, Heiress of Hainault" as daughter and sole heir of> Reginar V, Count of Hainault, by Matilde de Lorraine (AKA. Regnier V &> Mathilde de Verdun per AR). This would imply that her first husband> Herman Count of Hainault was count in right of his wife Richilde> (Leo/ES gives no ancestry or other info on Herman). This also fits> more closely with the original citation from CP (at least Mons is in> Hainault and the names are similar).> > Does anyone know anything about these discrepancies?The origin of Richilde has been debated for a long time & I'm not sure that any consensus has been reached yet.Hermann is usually thought to have been count of Hainault in his own right, as son of Count Reginar V (died ca 1039/40) by Mathilde of Verdun (usually said to have been daughter of Hermann, count of Verdun, explaining this given name).He was apparently father of two children, both without issue, a son who became a bishop and a daughter who was a nun.Richilde remarried in the early 1050s to Balduin VI of Flanders, and the main complication sets in because offspring of this union inherited Hainault, evidently through their mother and in preference to any relatives of Hermann.This could be out-of-date: according to my notes from many years ago, when I last gave attention to it, the matter was exhaustively discussed by Walter Mohr in 'Richilde vom Hennegau und Robert der Friese: Thesen zu einer Neubewertung der Quellen' in _Revue belge de philologie et d'histoire_ 58 (1980) & 59 (1981). Many university libraries would hold this journal.I expect a good deal of ink has flowed on the subject since then too but, if so, happily it has by-passed me.Peter Stewart- - - - - - - - - - -From: Todd A. Farmerie (farmerie AT interfold.com)Subject: Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of HerefordNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.medievalDate: 2004-01-10 19:13:10 PSTJim Weber wrote: > Does anyone know anything about these discrepancies?Yes. ES has misled Leo. Richilde was widow of Herman, Count of Hainault, which Herman was son of Regnier. It was as widow of Herman (who d.s.p.) that she brought Hainault to her second husband, even though she had no blood claim to it. I don't known where CP got the speculation that she was daughter of a Count of Egisheim, but it is correct that whe was not daughter of the prior Counts of Hainault.taf- - - - - - - - - - -From: Todd A. Farmerie (farmerie AT interfold.com)Subject: Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of Hereford Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medievalDate: 2004-01-11 08:30:42 PSTThierry Stasser wrote:> sorry the answer is in French, but it is part of a paper on the Counts of> Hainaut which is written in French , so it would take too long to translate> it in EnglishNo problem - I will just summarize for the English-only crowd.> Bien que certains chroniqueurs médiévaux fassent de Richilde, l¹épouse du> comte Herman, la fille héritière de Régnier V et son époux Herman un comte> d¹origine germanique.(Chron. Albrici, pp. 785, 789, 792; Gilles d¹Orval, MGH> SS XXV, p. 79), While some medieval chroniclers make Richilde daughter of Regnier and her husband Herman a germanic count . . .> il est certain que Herman était l¹héritier de Régnier V> (Gislebert de Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense, éd. L. Vanderkindere, Bruxelles,> 1904, p. 3; Lambert de Hersfeld, Annales Hersfeldenses, MGH SRG 1894, p.> 125). it is clear that Herman was Regnier's heir.> Une charte datée des années 1024/1039 mentionne en effet Régnier V et> son fils Herman (Van Overstraeten, pp. 502-503). A charter names Regnier and his son Herman.> On ne connaît pas les> origines familiales de la comtesse. On sait qu¹elle était la nièce du pape> Léon IX (Flandria Generosa, MGH SS IX, p. 320: ...eiusdem Richildis avunculo> ...) et qu¹elle était de sang impérial (Cont. Aquicinctina, p. 553:> Richildem quae erat de sanguine imperiali ...).As to Richilde, she was niece of Pope Leo IX, and of imperial blood.> Le pape Léon IX était né Bruno d¹Eguisheim, fils du comte Hugues IV et> d¹Helvide (Wibert, Vita Leonis, éd. I. M. Watterich, Pontificum romanorum> vitae, t. 1er, Leipzig, 1862, p. 128). Leo IX was born Bruno d'Eguisheim, son of Count Hugh IV and Helvide.> On lui connait avec certitude deux> frères, Gérard et Hugues (J. D. Schoepflin, Alsatia ... Diplomatica, t. 1er,> Mannheim, 1772, n° 207, p. 163), ainsi que plusieurs soeurs:He has two know brothers, Gerard and Hugh, and sisters:> Gerberge, abbesse de Nuys (L. Viellard, Documents et mémoires pour servir à> l¹histoire du Territoire de Belfort, Besançon, 1884, p. 115);> l¹épouse du comte Adalbert de Calw (Annalista Saxo,p. 687);> peut être Hildegarde, mère de Louis de Mousson Montbéliard (F. Vollmer, Die> Etichonen. Ein Beitrag zur Frage der Kontinuität früher Adelsfamilien,> Studien und vorarbeiten zur geschichte des grossfrankische und frühdeutschen> Adels, éd. G. Tellenbach, Fribourg, 1957, p. 182; pour les sources voir> Viellard, pp. 12-13; Schoepflin, n° 680, p. 477).Gerberge, Abbess of Nuys; the wife of Adelbert de Calw; and Hildegarde, mother of Louis de Mousson-Montbeliard.> Albert de Stade, Annales Stadenses, MGH SS XIV, p. 319, donne encore à Léon> IX une autre soeur en la personne de Gertrude, femme de Liudolphe de> Brunswick. Cette identification a cependant été mise en doute et on penche> plutôt à l¹identifier à la fille d¹un comte Egbert (H. Jakobs, Der Adel in> der Klosterreform von St. Blasien, Cologne-Graz, 1968, p. 204; E.> Hlawitschka, Untersuchungen zu den Thronwechseln der ersten Hälfte des 11> Jahrhunderts und zur Adelsgeschichte Süddeutschlands, Sigmaringen, 1987, pp.> 144-148; P. Corbet, L¹autel portatif de la comtesse Gertrude de Brunswick,> Cahiers de Civilisation Médiévale, 34, 1991, p. 103) .Albert de Stade give another sister, Gertrude, daughter of Liudolf of Brunswick, but this is doubtful, as she is identified as daughter of a Count Egbert.> Compte tenu de l¹état de nos sources, il est impossible d¹attribuer la> paternité ou la maternité de Richilde à un plutôt qu¹à un autre des frères> et soeurs de Léon IX. With the sources available, there is no reason to favor one sibling over another as parent of Richilde.> H. Pirenne, Richilde, Biographie Nationale de> Belgique, 19, 1907, col. 294, suggère d¹en faire une fille de Roger, frère> d¹Arnoul de Valenciennes. H. Pirenne suggested she was daughter of Roger, brother of Arnoul de Valenciennes.> Sur la comtesse Richilde, voir K. S. Nicholas,> Countesses as Rulers in Flanders, Aristocratic Women in Medieval France, éd.> T. Evergates, Philadelphia, 1999, pp. 115-117.See this source for details on Richilde.> Richilde se remaria à Baudouin VI de Flandre (= Baudouin I de Hainaut) en> 1051 selon les Ann. Elnonenses, p. 156; Ann. Laubienses, p. 20; Ann.> Leodienses, p. 20; Jacques de Guise , p. 188. Elle mourut en 1086 et fut> inhumée dans l¹église de Hasnon (Jacques de Guise, p. 195).She remarried Baldwin VI of Flanders (I of Hainaut) in 1051 and died 1086, buried at Hasnon.taf

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