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Persoonlijke gegevens Ermengarde de Bar-sur-Seine 

• Zij is geboren rond 960 in Bar-Sur-Seine, France.
• Beroepen:
• Comtesse, de Bar-sur-Seine, de Tonnerre.
• Comtesse de Bar-sur-Seine, de Tonnerre, Count of Vermandois.
• Zij is overleden in het jaar 1035 in France, Lot-et-Garonne, Aquitaine, France.
• Deze gegevens zijn voor het laatst bijgewerkt op 3 maart 2021.

Gezin van Ermengarde de Bar-sur-Seine

Zij is getrouwd met Herbert de Vermandois.

Zij zijn getrouwd voor 982Vermandois
Somme/Aisne France.

Kind(eren):

1. Eudes de Vermandois  ????-1045 

Notities over Ermengarde de Bar-sur-Seine

{geni:about_me} '''Note and update from Curator May 2020: It is highly unlikely that this Ermengarde was the same daughter of Rainard de Bar-sur-Seine who married Milon de Tonnerre; the dates of the childrens' births with each husband do not add up since they overlap. Unless Milon had a first wife who was mother to his older children, this Ermengarde is someone else.'''

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According to the [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm FMG Medieval Lands database] (also see [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20FRANCE.htm the Northern France MedLands pages] and the [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BURGUNDIAN%20NOBILITY.htm Burgundian MedLands pages], '''Ermengarde''' was the daughter of '''Rainard Comte de Bar-sur-Seine''' and his wife (name unknown). She probably married both '''Héribert IV Comte de Vermandois''' and '''Milo IV Comte de Tonnerre'''.

'''ERMENGARDIS'''

Regarding her identity and possible marriages to Heribert IV de Vermandois and Milo IV de Tonnerre:
* "Comes Heribertus" names "materque mea Pavia…pater meus Otto, eius genitrix, avia mea Ermengardis" donated property to Notre-Dame de Homblières by charter dated [13 Jan/13 Oct] 1045[1467].
* According to Ernest Petit[1468], Ermengardis was the widow of Milo [IV] Comte de Tonnerre. The author highlights a charter of Ermengardis Ctss de Vermandois witnessed by Renaud Comte de Tonnerre. He suggests that Comte Renaud would only have done this if he were the son of Ermengardis, although other explanations must be possible.
* Settipani points out[1469] that Ermengardis is named as the wife of Héribert [IV] in a document of her father-in-law Albert [I] Comte de Vermandois, relating to the abbey of Homblières, dated some time between 982 and the death of Comte Albert (in 987).
* According to Ernest Petit[2100], Ermengardis married secondly Heribert [IV] Comte de Vermandois. The author highlights a charter of Ermengarde Ctss de Vermandois witnessed by Rainard Comte de Tonnerre. He suggests that Rainard would only have done this if he were the son of Ermengarde, although other explanations must be possible. Settipani points out[2101] that Ermengardis is named as the wife of Héribert in a document of her father-in-law Albert I Comte de Vermandois, relating to the abbey of Homblières, dated some time between 982 and the death of Comte Albert (in 987). If the two marriages apply to the same Ermengarde, Comte Héribert must therefore have been her first husband and Comte Milon her second.
* However, it is not clear that this suggested co-identity is correct, a simpler explanation being that there were two different individuals named Ermengarde. "Raynardus comes Tornodorensis pagi et mater mea Ermengardis comitissa" donated "alodum nostrum…Cappam" to Saint-Michel by charter dated 1002, signed by "Odonis vicecomitis…"[2102].
* Ernest Petit also suggests[1470] that Ermengardis (wife of Comte Milon) was heiress of Bar-sur-Seine, in order to explain how her granddaughter by Comte Milon, Eustachie, transmitted this county to her husband Gauthier de Brienne. He identified the father of Ermengardis as "Renaud Comte de Bar-sur-Seine" based on two charters, which he dated to 992 and 997, which name "Rainardus comes" whom he identifies with Rainard, son of miles Raoul de Bar, who is mentioned in the Chronicle of St Bénigne[1471].
* A family connection is indicated by the charter dated to [992/1005] uner which “Milo comes Tornodorensis castri” donated property "in villa…Curtis-Secreta" to the monastery of Saint-Michel, with the consent of “coniugis mee Ermengarde et carissimorum filiorum meorum Achardi, Rainardi et Alberici”[2098], the property being the same as the subject of the [992] charter witnessed by "…Raynardus comes…"[2099].
* There appears to be no other evidence of the existence of this person, and Bouchard[1472] points out that the dating of the two charters in question is uncertain. She suggests that it is more likely that "Rainardus" is identified with Renaud Comte de Sens or with "Rainaldus" son of Ermengardis. This of course leaves open the question how Bar-sur-Seine was transmitted to the Tonnerre family.

'''Comte Heribert [IV] de Vermandois''' & his wife had two children:

a) '''ALBERT [II]''' ([985/90]-[1 Feb 1015/1017]). The Gesta Episcoporum Cameracensium names "Alberto Vermandensi comiti, fratri Ottonis"[1473]. He succeeded his father in [1000] as '''Comte de Vermandois'''. He abdicated before 15 Jul 1010[1474].

b) ''' EUDES [Otto]''' ([985/90]-25 May 1045). He succeeded in [1021] as '''Comte de Vermandois'''.

'''MILO [IV] Comte de Tonnerre''' ([950/65]-1002 or after) & his wife had four children:

a) '''ACHARD de Tonnerre'''

b) '''ODO de Tonnerre'''

c) '''RAINARD de Tonnerre''' ([980/90]-after 16 Jul 1039).

d) '''AUBRY de Tonnerre'''

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Died after 1018

She had a sister named Beatrice. She had a half-brother and four half-sisters, named Renaud, Gerberga, Maud, de Macon and Agnes
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===Liste des comtes de Bar-sur-Seine===

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Bar-sur-Seine

[ ''Ne doit pas être confondu avec les comtes de Bar (Bar-le-Duc)''.]

Les armoiries du comté mais celles-ci sont postérieures au dernier comte de Bar-sur-Seine

'''Comtes du Pagus Latiscencis, ou comtes du Lassois :'''
* Renard de Woëvre (c. 890) [réf. souhaitée]
* Réginald de Woëvre, (950-997) [réf. souhaitée]
* Raoul III[réf. souhaitée] de Woëvre, (c. 965). Vivait encore à l'époque de Brunon de Roucy, évêque de Langres3
* ? - 997 : Rainard de Bar-sur-Seine († c. 997), fils de Raoul qui précède4
* Une fille Ermengarde qui suit3
* 997-998 : Milon II, comte de Tonnerre, marié à Ermengarde3
* 998-1002 : Herbert III de Vermandois, second époux d'Ermengarde5
* 1002- ? : Renaud Ier de Tonnerre, fils de Milon II (tutelle de sa mère Ermengarde)5
* ?- 1039 : Renaud Ier, comte de Tonnerre et de Bar-sur-Seine6
* marié à Erwise6,7
* Trois enfants, Othon († 1036)6, Arduin évêque de Langres († 1065), Ermengarde (v. 1032-1083)
* 1040 : Guy de Tonnerre, frère du précédent8

Refs: Ernest Petit, ''Histoire des ducs de Bourgogne de la race capétienne avec des documents inédits et des pièces justificatives'', t. II, Paris, Lechevalier, 1888, « Généalogie des premiers comtes de Tonnerre, documents inédits du xe siècle pour servir à l'histoire...et des comtes inconnus jusqu'ici de Bar-sur-Seine », p. 419-442, disponible [archive] sur Gallica https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k111725f/f443

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COMTES de BAR-sur-SEINE (TONNERRE)
from [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc263919904 FMG Medieval Land Database]

1. RAOUL . The Chronicle of St Bénigne de Dijon names "miles Rodulfus…de Barrensi castro…et filius ipsius Rainardus"[113]. m ---. The name of Raoul´s wife is not known. Raoul & his wife had one child:

a) '''RAINARD''' . The Chronicle of St Bénigne de Dijon names "miles Rodulfus…de Barrensi castro…et filius ipsius Rainardus"[114]. same person as…? RAINARD (-after [997]). '''Comte [de Bar-sur-Seine]'''.

* "Milo comes…Raynardus comes…" witnessed the charter dated to [992] under which “Umbertus…et mee conjugis…Giberge” donated property "in villa…Curtis-Secreta…in comitatu Tornodorense" to Saint-Michel de Tonnerre[115].
* Ernest Petit suggests this co-identity, pointing out that Coussegré was situated in the domaine of Chaource, which in part was a dependency of the county of Bar-sur-Seine[116].
* There appears to be no other evidence of the existence of Rainard, son of Raoul, and Bouchard points out that the dating of the charter in question is uncertain[117]. She suggests that it is more likely that "Rainardus comes" was either Rainard Comte de Sens or Rainard Comte de Tonnerre, the son of Ermengardis. However, the latter suggestion appears incorrect as "Miles comes", who would have been the father of Rainard Comte de Tonnerre, is also named in the [992] charter. "…Raynardi comitis…Milonis comitis…" subscribed a charter dated to [997] which deals with the property at Coussegré[118].

m ---. The name of Renard´s wife is not known. Rainard & his wife had [one possible child]:

i) [ERMENGARDE (-after 1018). Ernest Petit suggests that Ermengarde, wife of Milon [III] Comte de Tonnerre, was the daughter of Rainard and heiress of Bar-sur-Seine[119]. A family connection is indicated by the charter dated to [992/1005] uner which “Milo comes Tornodorensis castri” donated property "in villa…Curtis-Secreta" to the monastery of Saint-Michel, with the consent of “coniugis mee Ermengarde et carissimorum filiorum meorum Achardi, Rainardi et Alberici”[120], the property being the same as the subject of the [992] charter witnessed by "…Raynardus comes…"[121]. m MILO [IV] Comte de Tonnerre, son of --- ([950/65]-1002 or after).

ALSO LISTED AS "IRMGARD"

1 NAME Ermengarde /De Bar/

1 NAME Ermengarde /De Bar/

1 NAME Ermengarde /De Bar/

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