Family tree Den Hollander en Van Dueren den Hollander » Otton "Otto de Warcq" de Chiny Comte de Chiny et d'Ivois (955-987)

Personal data Otton "Otto de Warcq" de Chiny Comte de Chiny et d'Ivois 

• Nickname is Otto de Warcq.
• He was born in the year 955 in Vermandois, Normandy, France.
• Baptized (at 8 years of age or later) by the priesthood authority of the LDS church on August 31, 1940.
• Alternative: Baptized (at 8 years of age or later) by the priesthood authority of the LDS church on August 31, 1940.
• Alternative: Baptized (at 8 years of age or later) by the priesthood authority of the LDS church on August 31, 1940.
• Occupations:
• Comte, de Chiny, de Warcq en Ivoix.
• Comte, de Chiny, de Warcq en Ivoix.
• He died in the year 987 in Castle of Warcq, Chiny, he was 32 years old.
• A child of Adalbert and Gerberga
• This information was last updated on January 26, 2021.

Household of Otton "Otto de Warcq" de Chiny Comte de Chiny et d'Ivois

Child(ren):

1. Louis I de Warcq  975-1025 

Notes about Otton "Otto de Warcq" de Chiny Comte de Chiny et d'Ivois

Name Prefix: Count

Name Prefix: Count

Name Prefix: Count

For a time, Otto I was Count of Chiny, 966; dispossessed (recorded after 990) as Count of Labangau by Adalbert of Ivrea (son of Berenger II, King of Italy, 974); built a castle at Warcq, 971; adherent of Charles, Duke of Lower Lorraine, and an enemy of Archbishop Adalbern of Rheims.

For a time, Otto I was Count of Chiny, 966; dispossessed (recorded after 990) as Count of Labangau by Adalbert of Ivrea (son of Berenger II, King of Italy, 974); built a castle at Warcq, 971; adherent of Charles, Duke of Lower Lorraine, and an enemy of Archbishop Adalbern of Rheims.

For a time, Otto I was Count of Chiny, 966; dispossessed (recorded after 990) as Count of Labangau by Adalbert of Ivrea (son of Berenger II, King of Italy, 974); built a castle at Warcq, 971; adherent of Charles, Duke of Lower Lorraine, and an enemy of Archbishop Adalbern of Rheims.

graaf van Warcq en Chiny

graaf van Warcq en Chiny

Gerberge Princess of Lorraine URL: http://www.gencircles.com/users/schmidtke/4/data/1125
Gerberge Princess of Lorraine
Birth: About 925 in Lorraine
Death:
Sex: F
Father: Gilbert Duke of Lorraine b. About 890 in Reims, Lorraine, France
Mother: Gerberge Queen of France b. About 892 in Nordhausen, Saxony, Prussia

Spouses & Children:
Albert I The Pious, Count of Vermandois (Husband) b. About 915 in Vermandois, Neustria
Marriage: BEF 954 in France

Children:
1 Herbert III Count of Vermandois b. About 942 in Vermandois
2 Eudes (Otton) de VERMANDOIS b. About 946 in Vermandois
3 Guy Count Of SOISSONS b. About 948 in Vermandois
4 Gisaele Of VERMANDOIS b. About 950 in Vermandois
5 Lindulf Of VERMANDOIS b. About 957 in Vermandois

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{geni:about_me} https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otton_Ier_de_Chiny?wprov=sfti1

Many scholars believe that '''Otto I Comte de Chiny et d'Ivois''' was in fact '''Otto de Vermandois''', son of '''Comte Adalbert de Vermandois'''.

Here is the information on '''Otto de Vermandois''' from the [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20FRANCE.htm FMG Medieval Lands database]:

'''OTTO ([950/55]-after 2 Nov [958/59]).''' "Ottonem, Alberti Vermandensium comitis filium" is named in the Gesta Episcoporum Cameracensium[1475]. A list of members of the Cathedral of Paris lists (in order) "Albertus comes, Girberga comitissa, Harbertus, Otto, Lewultus, Girbertus, Gondrada, Ricardus, Harbertus comes…", the first four individuals named apparently being Comte Albert, his wife and three sons, and the last named maybe his brother or nephew[1476]. Otto is named with his parents in a charter of Comte Adalbert dated 2 Nov [958/59][1477]. '''same person as…? OTTO (-[986/87] or after)'''. There appears to be no direct proof that Otto, ancestor of the Comtes de Chiny, was the same person as Otto, son of Adalbert Comte de Vermandois. The Historia Monasterii Mosomense records that "Ottonem comitem" built "castellum…Warcus" (Warcq, Ardennes) in 971, and suggests his affiliation when, in a later passage, it clarifies that "superius dictus Ottho erat comes, Otthonum…Romanorum imperatorum…germanissima progenies"[1478]. The editor of the MGH SS edition of the Historia identifies Otto with the son of Adalbert Comte de Vermandois and Gerberge, daughter of Emperor Otto I's sister[1479]. A subsequent passage of the Historia dates the foundation of the monastery to 24 Jul 971[1480], implying that the events recorded earlier in the text predated this foundation. If this is correct, 971 seems early for Otto de Vermandois to have constructed Warcq in light of his estimated birth date (which appears reasonably robust). Gerbert, in a letter dated to Oct 986, records that "dux Cono pro suo Ottone insidias molitur"[1481]. In the same letter, he also records that "Laudunensis episcopus" left "Dordingum" (Dourdon?) on the advice of "Ottonis et Heriberti" in support of "ducem" (which appears to refer to Hugues Capet). Settipani suggests that "Otto" in this text refers to the holder of Warcq[1482]. However, all other passages in Gerbert's letters which name "Ottonis et Heriberti" (in that order) appear to refer to Eudes I Comte de Blois and his first cousin Héribert [V] Comte de Troyes. It is unclear from the full text of this letter whether "Ottone" and "Ottonis" relate to the same person. "Dux Cono" has not been identified, although it may refer to Konrad I Duke of Swabia. If this is correct, it is possible that the first "Ottone" is a different person from the second "Ottonis" as there is no other passage which links the Blois count to the Swabian duke. Settipani states that Otto died "between 986 and 987", without specifying the basis for this speculation[1483]. - COMTES de CHINY.

And here is the information on '''Otto I Comte de Chiny''' from the [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LOTHARINGIAN%20(UPPER)%20NOBILITY.htm FMG Medieval Lands database]:

'''OTTO, son of [ALBERT [I] Comte de Vermandois''' & his wife Gerberga [Hainaut ([950/55]-[986/87]).
* "Ottonem, Alberti Vermandensium comitis filium" is named in the Gesta Episcoporum Cameracensium[260].
* A list of members of the Cathedral of Paris lists (in order) "Albertus comes, Girberga comitissa, Harbertus, Otto, Lewultus, Girbertus, Gondrada, Ricardus, Harbertus comes…", the first four individuals named apparently being Comte Albert, his wife and three sons, and the last named maybe his brother or nephew[261].
* Otto is named with his parents in a charter of Comte Adalbert dated 2 Nov [958/59][262].
* There appears to be no direct proof that Otto, ancestor of the Comtes de Chiny, was the same person as Otto, son of Adalbert Comte de Vermandois.
* The Historia Monasterii Mosomense records that "Ottonem comitem" built "castellum…Warcus" (Warcq, Ardennes, in the comitatus Castritius) in 971, and suggests his affiliation when, in a later passage, it clarifies that "superius dictus Ottho erat comes, Otthonum…Romanorum imperatorum…germanissima progenies"[263].
* The editor of the MGH SS edition of the Historia identifies Otto with the son of Adalbert Comte de Vermandois and Gerberge, daughter of Emperor Otto I's sister[264].
* A subsequent passage of the Historia dates the foundation of the monastery to 24 Jul 971[265], implying that the events recorded earlier in the text predated this foundation. If this is correct, 971 seems early for Otto de Vermandois to have constructed Warcq in light of his estimated birth date (which appears reasonably robust).
* It is assumed that Otto conquered Ivois around the same time as building the castle of Warcq, and installed himself as Comte d'Ivois[266]. Gerbert, in a letter dated to Oct 986, records that "dux Cono pro suo Ottone insidias molitur"[267].
* In the same letter, he also records that "Laudunensis episcopus" left "Dordingum" (Dourdon?) on the advice of "Ottonis et Heriberti" in support of "ducem" (which appears to refer to Hugues Capet).
* Settipani suggests that "Otto" in this text refers to the holder of Warcq[268]. However, all other passages in Gerbert's letters which name "Ottonis et Heriberti" (in that order) appear to refer to Eudes I Comte de Blois and his first cousin Héribert [V] Comte de Troyes. It is unclear from the full text of this letter whether "Ottone" and "Ottonis" relate to the same person. "Dux Cono" has not been identified, although it may refer to Konrad I Duke of Swabia. If this is correct, it is possible that the first "Ottone" is a different person from the second "Ottonis" as there is no other passage which links the Blois count to the Swabian duke.
* Settipani states that Otto died "between 986 and 987", without specifying the basis for this speculation[269].

m ---. The name of Otto's wife is not known.

Otto & his wife had one child:

1. ''' LOUIS [I]''' (-murdered 29 Sep 1025). The Gesta Episcoporum Virdunensium names "comitem Chisneiensem Ludowvicum, filum Ottonis comitis et patrem alterius Ludovici domni pontificis nostri Alberonis avi, Bullonienses, milites patris eiusdem ducis [=dux et marchio Godefridus, Gozelonis ducis filius]"[270]. Comte de Chiny. The Gesta Episcoporum Virdunensium records that Rambert Bishop of Verdun appointed "comitem Chisneiensem Ludovicum, filium Ottonis comitis" as count of the town of Verdun, presumably after the resignation of Friedrich, but that Gozelon Duke of Lower Lotharingia (brother of Friedrich) invaded the town with Baudouin Count of Flanders and murdered Louis[271]. The necrology of Verdun Saint-Vanne records the death "IV Kal Oct" of "Ludovicus ex comite monachus pro cuius anima habemus V mansos apud Geronis villam"[272].
m ADELAIS, daughter of --- (-after 1025). "Domina Adelaydis comitissa uxor quondam Hludovici comitis" donated property to Verdun Saint-Vanne by undated charter, subscribed by "Gislebertus comes"[273]. The subscription by Giselbert Comte de Looz suggests that Adelais may have been his close relative, maybe his sister. "Adelaydis comitissa uxor quondam…Ludouici comitis" donated property "per manum Gozelonis ducis atque Godefridi…et pro eius amore Dominique Frederici prefati ducis fratris" to Verdun Saint-Vanne by charter dated to [1038/40], subscribed by "dux Gozelo et eius filius Godefridus"[274].

Louis [I] & his wife had two children:

a) LOUIS [II] (-[17 Jan] before 1066). The Gesta Episcoporum Virdunensium names "comitem Chisneiensem Ludowvicum, filum Ottonis comitis et patrem alterius Ludovici domni pontificis nostri Alberonis avi, Bullonienses, milites patris eiusdem ducis [=dux et marchio Godefridus, Gozelonis ducis filius]"[275]. Comte de Chiny. The necrology of Verdun Saint-Vanne records the death "XVI Kal Feb" of "Ludouicus comes"[276], which may refer to Louis [II]. m SOPHIE, daughter of ---. The primary source which confirms her marriage has not yet been identified. Louis [II] & his wife had two children:

i) ARNOUL (-16 Apr 1106). “Arnulphus comes cum coniuge mea Adelais, filius Ludovici comitis” founded a monastery “in villa Pyrorum…in honore S. Sulpitii”, subject to “ecclesiæ S. Petri et S. Hugberti in Ardenna”, by undated charter signed by “Arnulphi comitis et Manasse fratris eius”[277]. Comte de Chiny.

ii) MANASSES (-after 1068). The Chronicon Sancti Huberti names "Manasses frater Arnulfi" when recording that he became a monk at St Hubert[278]. “Arnulphus comes cum coniuge mea Adelais, filius Ludovici comitis” founded a monastery “in villa Pyrorum…in honore S. Sulpitii”, subject to “ecclesiæ S. Petri et S. Hugberti in Ardenna”, by undated charter signed by “Arnulphi comitis et Manasse fratris eius”[279]. "Arnulfus comes cum coniuge mea Adelais filius Ludoguici comitis" donated revenue from the church of Prix to Ardenne Saint-Hubert by charter dated to 1066, signed by "Arnulfi comitis et Manasse fratris eius…"[280]. "Arnulfus comes cum coniuge mea Adelail, filius Ludoguici comitis" founded the priory of Priez by charter dated 1068, signed by "Arnulphi comitis et Manasse fratris eius…"[281].

b) LIUTGARDIS . The Chronicon Sancti Huberti names "Liegarde amita Arnulfi comitis", her husband "Richizonis" and their four sons "Hugo et Ludovicus, Rodericus et Riquinus", recording that "Riquinus" was killed by "Heribrando Bulionensi" and buried at St Hubert[282]. m RICHER de Sancy, son of --- (-before 1084).

The [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otton_Ier_de_Chiny French wikipedia article on '''Otton Ier de Chiny'''], based on the work on Settipani, also places him as Otto de Vermandois:

'''Otton Ier de Chiny'''

Un '''Otton de Vermandois''' est cité dans une charte de 958 au côtés de son père Albert Ier, comte de Vermandois. Son nom, ainsi que celui de son frère Liudolphe montre une ascendance issus des rois de Germanie de la famille de Saxe, ce qui est effectivement le cas, car sa mère Gerberge de Lotharingie est nièce de l'empereur Otton Ier. Cet Otton de Vermandois est signalé comme un seigneur querelleur, qui menaça le Hainaut et le Cambrésis.

Un Otton édifia vers 971 la forteresse de Warcq, en Ardennes, et s'attaqua à ses voisins, dont l'évêque Adalbéron de Reims. Il est mentionné comme étant d'ascendance impériale.

Il y a également un certain nombre d'autre fait qui incitèrent les historiens Ferdinand Lot et Léon Vanderkindere, à la fin du xixe siècle, à voir dans ces deux Otton un unique personnage historique.

'''Otton de Warcq''' fut le fondateur du comté de Chiny, bien qu'il n'en porta pas probablement pas le titre, et mourut vers 987.

Mariage et enfant

Son épouse est inconnue. Il est possible que celle-ci soit issue des comtes de Verdun de la maison d'Ardennes, soit une descendance de Wigéric de Bidgau et de Cunégonde de France, petite-fille de Louis II le Bègue, roi de France. Cela expliquerait le nom de son fils et la nomination de celui-ci comme comte de Verdun en 1024.

Otton de Warcq a eu :

'''Louis Ier''', mort en 1025, comte de Chiny et de Verdun.
Source [modifier]

Christian Settipani, La Préhistoire des Capétiens (Nouvelle histoire généalogique de l'auguste maison de France, vol. 1), éd. Patrick van Kerrebrouck, 1993 (ISBN 2-9501509-3-4)

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Parents are Adelbert and Gerberge
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Un Otton de Vermandois est cité dans une charte de 958 au côtés de son père Albert Ier, comte de Vermandois. Son nom, ainsi que celui de son frère Liudolphe montre une ascendance issus des rois de Germanie de la famille de Saxe, ce qui est effectivement le cas, car sa mère Gerberge de Lotharingie est nièce de l'empereur Otton Ier. Cet Otton de Vermandois est signalé comme un seigneur querelleur, qui menaça le Hainaut et le Cambrésis.

Un Otton édifia vers 971 la forteresse de Warcq, en Ardennes, et s'attaqua à ses voisins, dont l'évêque Adalbéron de Reims. Il est mentionné comme étant d'ascendance impériale.

Il y a également un certain nombre d'autre fait qui incitèrent les historiens Ferdinand Lot et Léon Vanderkindere, à la fin du XIXe siècle à voir dans ces deux Otton un unique personnage historique.

Otton de Warcq fut le fondateur du comté de Chiny, bien qu'il n'en porta pas probablement pas le titre, et mourut vers 987.

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Otton de Warcq fut le fondateur du comté de Chiny, bien qu'il n'en porta pas probablement pas le titre, et mourut vers 987.

from "Our Folk" by Albert D Hart, Jr.

Data From Lynn Jeffrey Bernhard, 2445 W 450 South #4, Springville UT 84663-4950
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