Genealogy Wylie » Isabel de Say (1135-± 1199)

Personal data Isabel de Say 

• She was born in the year 1135 in Clun, Shropshire, England.
• She died about 1199.Sources 1, 3
• A child of Elias (Ellis Ingram) de Say
• This information was last updated on April 10, 2023.

Household of Isabel de Say

(1) She is married to William FitzAlan.

They got married before 1146 at 1st husband 2nd wife.Sources 1, 3

Child(ren):

1. William FitzAlan  < 1154-1210 

(2) She is married to Geoffrey de Vere.

They got married about 1166 at 2nd husband.Sources 1, 3

(3) She is married to William de Botreux.

They got married before 1188 at 3rd husband, 1st wife.Sources 4, 5

Child(ren):

1. Emma de Botreaux  ± 1175-????
2. William de Botreaux  ± 1177-± 1221

Notes about Isabel de Say

Isabel (married 2nd c1166 Geoffrey de Vere, married 3rd c1188 WilliamBoterel, died c1199), daughter and heir of Ingram de Say, feudal Lord ofClun, Salop. [Burke's Peerage]

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The following is copied from the website, maintained by Chris Phillips,entitled: "Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage":

Isabel was the daughter of Elias, not Ingram, de Say, and married thefirst William FitzAlan (d. 1160), not his son William, who died in 1210.Their son and heir William died about Easter, 1215. For a fuller account,see below.

Eyton, in Antiquities of Shropshire [vol.7, pp.211-253 and elsewhere;1853-60], gave a very detailed account of the early FitzAlans. In thereference cited above, J.H. Round corrected the early part of Eyton'swork, dealing with Alan FitzFleald's ancestry. However, for the followinggenerations, Eyton's account remains both fuller and more accurate thanlater work [cf. Sanders, English Baronies, pp.70, 71, 124, 391, 392(1960); Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, pp.515, 680, 860 (2002)].

In the following summary, I have included references to source materialonly for points omitted or contradicted by the later writers (and in onecase for an addition to Eyton's account).

1. Alan FitzFleald, who married Aveline de Hesding.

2. William FitzAlan, their son and heir, who married 1stly Christiana,neptis (niece or kinswoman) of Robert Earl of Gloucester, and 2ndlyIsabel, daughter and heir of Elias de Say, lord of Clun [Isabel isdescribed as the daughter of Elias in a 12th-century narrative from thecartulary of Lilleshall Abbey, printed by Dugdale, Monasticon, vol.6,p.262, cited by Eyton, vol.9, p.358]. After William's death in 1160,Isabel remarried, before 1166, to Geoffrey de Vere (d. 1170) and, before1188, to William Boterel; she died probably in 1199, and was survived byher third husband.

3. William FitzAlan, the son and heir of William by Isabel, who succeededas a minor and apparently came of age in 1175. He married a daughter ofHugh de Lacy, Lord of Meath [Rot. Hundredorum, vol.2, pp.69, 76, 80,referring to land given to William FitzAlan with the sister of Walter deLacy, cited by Eyton, vol.5, p.86, vol.10, p.126] and died in 1210[Eyton, vol.7, p.244 citing the Annals of Dunstaple Priory; since printedin Annales Monastici, vol.3 (Rolls Series no 36; 1866)].

4. William FitzAlan, their son and heir, who succeeded as a minor,married Mary, the daughter of Thomas de Erdington, and died withoutissue, Easter 1215 [Eyton, vol.10, p.326, citing a copy of a letter fromThomas de Erdington to the king, referring to William's death at Easterand dated by Eyton to 1215 on internal evidence (Vincent's Collections,vol.3, p.98, College of Arms)]. Mary remarried to William de Duston, andboth were living June 1220 [Curia Regis Rolls, vol.9, p.57].

5. John FitzAlan, his brother and heir, as given above.

(Note that Sanders gave an alternative reconstruction, in which thesecond William FitzAlan died 1212-1213 and was the grandfather, not thefather, of William (d. 1215) and his brother John. But this is shown tobe incorrect by the statement of a jury in 1223 that John FitzAlan'sfather, William, had been a minor in the custody of Henry II [Curia RegisRolls, vol.11, p.69].)

[The error concerning the identity of the William FitzAlan who marriedIsabel de Say, and much of the evidence presented by Eyton, were pointedout by Joe Cochoit in April 2002. Peter Stewart pointed out thedisagreement between Eyton's and Sanders's reconstructions in May 2002.Thanks to Cris Nash, Ian Fettes, Leo van de Pas, Rosie Bevan and RobertS. Baxter for many other helpful contributions during the ensuingdiscussion.]

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Curt Hofemann, (XXXXX@XXXX.XXX), in a post-em, wrote:

It appears the name of her father was Ellis/Elias/Helias de SAY/SAYE ¬ Ingram/Ingelram:

(Ellis de Say) whose da. and h., Isabel, brought it (the Lordship of Clunin Shropshire) to her husband, William FitzAlan [Ref: CP II:335 ascorrected by CP XIV]

In CP V:391 it states "...Isabel, da. and h. of Ingram de Say..."
Isabel was the daughter of Elias, not Ingram, de Say... Isabel, daughterand heir of Elias de Say, lord of Clun [Isabel is described as thedaughter of Elias in a 12th-century narrative from the cartulary ofLilleshall Abbey, printed by Dugdale, Monasticon, vol.6, p.262, cited byEyton, vol.9, p.358]. [Ref: Some corrections and additions to theComplete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391:http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

As I have noted, after 1160, Guy le Strange, Sheriff of Shropshire wasappointed to administer the Fitz Alan estates and Eyton gives manyexamples of entries by him with regard to these estates. In 1165,Geoffrey de Vere married Isabel de say and became lord of Clun in herright. This is recorded in the Liber Niger and numerous financialentries. Her third husband, William Boterell, would also become Baron ofClun in her right. William II Fitz Alan (her son) is not recorded withregard to Clun until 1203, after her death. She actually died in 1199 sopresumably William FA (FITZALAN) was baron of Clun from 1199-1210.

Beginning in 1166, Geoffrey de Vere began receiving income from theFitz Alan estates. This continues until 1170 when Eyton notes "Geoffreyde Vere died; but credit is taken for his full annuity out of the FitzAlan estates up to Michaelmas. The word habuit is however used insteadof the word habet in respect of the lands which had furnished the saidannuity and which he had ceased to hold."

All this clearly shows that Isabel de Say, Lady of Clun marriedGeoffrey de Vere and that she is the same as the Isabel de Say whomarried William Fitz Alan (d. 1160). [Ref: Joe Cochoit ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX))message to soc.genealogy.medieval 19 May 2002]

Isabel Say, daughter and heir of Helias de Say, Lady of Clun, niece ofRobert Say, Earl of Gloucester. [Ref: The Ancestors of Homer BeersJames: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~pmcbride/james/f019.htm#T55]

married 1st: William FITZALAN (no date given) [Ref: CP V:392, Hollowayp10, Watney p391]
(Holloway = "The Genealogy of Mary Wentworth, Who Became the Wife ofWilliam Brewster" by Naomi D. Holloway 1969 LDS Film 1738313)

married 2nd: Geoffrey de VERE before 1166 [Ref: Some corrections andadditions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

married 3rd: William BOTEREL before 1188 [Ref: Some corrections andadditions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

she died probably in 1199 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to theComplete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391:http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

Regards,
Curt

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Timeline Isabel de Say

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