Stamboom » Renaud "1° conde palatin" de Rheims 1° conde palatin (± 931-967)

Personal data Renaud "1° conde palatin" de Rheims 1° conde palatin 

• Alternative names: The Advocate, Renaud de Roucy Ct de Roucy, Isaac Remi
• Nickname is 1° conde palatin.
• He was born about 931 in Reims, Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France.
• He was christened about 931 in (alternate birth date).
• Baptized (at 8 years of age or later) by the priesthood authority of the LDS church.
• Alternative: Baptized (at 8 years of age or later) by the priesthood authority of the LDS church.
• Alternative: Baptized (at 8 years of age or later) by the priesthood authority of the LDS church.
• Alternative: Baptized (at 8 years of age or later) by the priesthood authority of the LDS church.
• Alternative: Baptized (at 8 years of age or later) by the priesthood authority of the LDS church on February 18, 1992.
• He died on May 10, 967 in Reims, Marne, Champagne, France.
• He is buried in the year 967Abbey of St. Remy, Rheims, Marne, Champaigne-Ardenne
  France.
• A child of Unknown Father of Renaud de Roucy and Unknown Mother of Renaud de Roucy

Household of Renaud "1° conde palatin" de Rheims 1° conde palatin

He is married to Alberade.

They got married in the year 945 at France.

Child(ren):

1. Ermentrude (Irmtrude) de Roucy  960-1003 

Notes about Renaud "1° conde palatin" de Rheims 1° conde palatin

GIVN Renaud de
SURN Roucy
AFN FLHB-80
DATE 9 SEP 2000
TIME 13:15:34

GIVN Renaud de
SURN Roucy
AFN FLHB-80
DATE 9 SEP 2000
TIME 13:15:34

[v28t0449.FTW]

Count of Rheims and Roucy

Renaud (Reinald) var av normannisk herkomst og greve av Reims og Roucy.
Roucyslekten var grever av Roucy i Frankrike. En sidegren ble senere konger av
Jerusalem.

Count of Roucy; Seigneur de Roucy; Vicomte and Count of Rheims.

Count of Roucy; Seigneur de Roucy; Vicomte and Count of Rheims.

Count of Roucy; Seigneur de Roucy; Vicomte and Count of Rheims.

[s2.FTW]

[Brøderbund WFT Vol. 2, Ed. 1, Tree #1241, Date of Import: May 8, 1997]

!SEIGNEUR DE ROUCY[Brøderbund WFT Vol. 2, Ed. 1, Tree #1241, Date of Import: May 8, 1997]

!SEIGNEUR DE ROUCY

Ragnvald, Count of Roucy, Seigneur de Roucy, Vicomte and Count of Rheims.

[Weis 133] He is called the 8th son of Herbert II, Count of Vermandois, but is not so given by Père Anselme; though Anselme does give Hugh, Archbishop of Rheims, as a son of Herbert II).

[1391] WSHNGT.ASC file (Geo Washington Ahnentafel) # 17451110 = 3678262 = 1839128

EDWARD3.TXT Renaud RHEIMS-ROUCY (950-973)

[Geoffrey De Normandie, Gedcom BSJTK Smith Family Tree.ged]

OCCU Count of Rheims
ALIA Rajnold z Roucy, d 10-05-967, m 994-997
DATE 22 MAR 1998

GIVN Renaud de
SURN Roucy
AFN FLHB-80
DATE 11 SEP 2000
TIME 21:19:34

DATE 3 JUN 2000

OCCU Count of Rheims & Roucy..
SOUR Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 127 says CIR 926;
gendex.com/users/daver/rigney/D0001 says ABT 921 and place;
misc.traveller.com/genealogy/gedhtml/kmilburn/d0002/g0000044.htm#I1423 say 950
SOUR misc.traveller.com/genealogy/gedhtml/kmilburn says 973;
COMYNI.GED says ABT 973; gendex.com/users/daver/rigney says 15 Mar 973;
Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 127 & HAWKINS.GED say 10 May 967
SOUR Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 127;
Name sometimes spelled Rognwald or Rainald - SAVOY.TXT; Ragnvald, Count of
Roucy - Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 70; HAWKINS.GED says
father was Rognvald (b. ABT 896 in Norway) - NPH

OCCU Count of Rheims & Roucy..
SOUR Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 127 says CIR 926;
gendex.com/users/daver/rigney/D0001 says ABT 921 and place;
misc.traveller.com/genealogy/gedhtml/kmilburn/d0002/g0000044.htm#I1423 say 950
SOUR misc.traveller.com/genealogy/gedhtml/kmilburn says 973;
COMYNI.GED says ABT 973; gendex.com/users/daver/rigney says 15 Mar 973;
Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 127 & HAWKINS.GED say 10 May 967
SOUR Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 127;
Name sometimes spelled Rognwald or Rainald - SAVOY.TXT; Ragnvald, Count of
Roucy - Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 70; HAWKINS.GED says
father was Rognvald (b. ABT 896 in Norway) - NPH

OCCU Count of Rheims & Roucy..
SOUR Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 127 says CIR 926;
gendex.com/users/daver/rigney/D0001 says ABT 921 and place;
misc.traveller.com/genealogy/gedhtml/kmilburn/d0002/g0000044.htm#I1423 say 950
SOUR misc.traveller.com/genealogy/gedhtml/kmilburn says 973;
COMYNI.GED says ABT 973; gendex.com/users/daver/rigney says 15 Mar 973;
Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 127 & HAWKINS.GED say 10 May 967
SOUR Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 127;
Name sometimes spelled Rognwald or Rainald - SAVOY.TXT; Ragnvald, Count of
Roucy - Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 70; HAWKINS.GED says
father was Rognvald (b. ABT 896 in Norway) - NPH

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DATE 3 JUN 2000Rootsweb Feldman
URL: http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:3044567&id=I19428
# ID: I19428
# Name: Renaud DE ROUCY 1 2 3 4 5
# Sex: M
# Title: Count of Reims
# Birth: 926 in Roucy, Aisne, France Abt 937 1 2 3 4 5
# Death: 15 MAR 972/73 in 10 May 967 1 2 3 4 5
# Burial: Abbey of St. Remi, Rheims, Marne 1 2 3 4 5
# Ancestral File #: FLHB-80
# Change Date: 15 JAN 2004 5
# Change Date: 9 OCT 2001 2 3 4 5
# Note:

[Joanne's Tree.1 GED.GED]

2 SOUR S332582
3 DATA
4 TEXT Date of Import: 14 Jan 2004

[daveanthes.FTW]

OCCU Count of Rheims
ALIA Rajnold z Roucy, d 10-05-967, m 994-997
DATE 22 MAR 1998

OCCU Count of Rheims & Roucy..
SOUR Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 127 says CIR 926;
gendex.com/users/daver/rigney/D0001 says ABT 921 and place;
misc.traveller.com/genealogy/gedhtml/kmilburn/d0002/g0000044.htm#I1423 say 950
SOUR misc.traveller.com/genealogy/gedhtml/kmilburn says 973;
COMYNI.GED says ABT 973; gendex.com/users/daver/rigney says 15 Mar 973;
Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 127 & HAWKINS.GED say 10 May 967
SOUR Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 127;
Name sometimes spelled Rognwald or Rainald - SAVOY.TXT; Ragnvald, Count of
Roucy - Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 70; HAWKINS.GED says
father was Rognvald (b. ABT 896 in Norway) - NPH

Father: Herbert II Count Of VERMANDOIS b: 884 in Vermandois, Neustria
Mother: Hildebrante Princess of FRANCE b: 897 in Vermandois, Neustria

Marriage 1 Spouse Unknown

Children

1. Has No Children Joceran OF , Count Of Brionnaise Semur b: 898

Marriage 2 Alberade de LORRAINE b: ABT 930 in of, Lorraine, France

* Married: ABT 945 in France 1 2 3 4 5

Children

1. Has Children Gilbert Ier DE ROUCY b: 951 in of, Reims, Marne, France
2. Has Children Ermentrude DE ROUCY b: 958 in Reimes, Macon, France
3. Has Children Lietaud Or Letgarde DE MARLE b: ABT 992 in Roucy, Aisne, France

Sources:

1. Title: daveanthes.FTW
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Text: Date of Import: 14 Jan 2004
2. Title: daveanthes.FTW
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Media: Book
Text: Date of Import: Jan 13, 2004
3. Title: Spare.FTW
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Media: Other
Text: Date of Import: Jan 18, 2004
4. Title: Spare.FTW
Repository:
Call Number:
Media: Other
Text: Date of Import: 21 Jan 2004
5. Title: Joanne's Tree.1 GED.GED
Repository:
Call Number:
Media: Other
Text: Date of Import: Feb 6, 2004

The ancestry of Renaud is questionable. I give below (1) AR, which suggests Herbert II de Vermandois. (2) Peter Stewart, who rejects AR, and finds a claim of "Ragenold the Dane" as father. (3) Christian Settipani (who I am following) who rejects the Dane in favor of an Anjou connection.
Alberade of Lorraine, m. Renaud, d. 15 Mar 973, Count of Rheims and Roucy. (He is called the 8th son of Herbert II, Count of Vermandois, but is not so given by Pere Anselme; though Anselme does give Hugh, Archbishop of Rheims, as a son of Herbert II). [Ancestral Roots line 151-19]
Note: Alan Wilson names Renaud's father as Rognvald (a Dane) of Burgundy. Leo van de Pas agrees with Alan, giving Ragenold "the Viking" a birth year of c900, which would not agree with Settipani's identification of him nor his ancestry, so I am omitting it.
The following post to SGM, 30 Nov 2000, by Peter Stewart, refutes Herbert de Vermandois as father of Renaud, and, later, suggests a Danish marauder as father:
From: Stewart, Peter ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)) Subject: RE: Renaud de Roucy
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval Date: 2000-11-30 19:44:31 PST
From: (XXXXX@XXXX.XXX) [mailto:(XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)] > Sent: Friday, 1 December 2000 9:04
> To: (XXXXX@XXXX.XXX) > Subject: Renaud de Roucy
> In researching Renaud de Roucy b. abt 0931, Roucy(or > Reims), France; d. 15 March 0973 I have encountered two > different parentages as follows:
> Ragnvald "the Viking" of Denmark b. abt 0885; d. abt 0925 (I know it appears that the son was born 6 years after the death of the father; but this is from the same source.)
> Herbert II de Vermandois b. abt 0884, Vermandois; d. 23 > February 0943.
> There is also a Hubert of Burgundy which is I would bet is Herbert II, although his father is Hubert/Herbert also.
> Of course I hope the correct parentage is Herbert II since his lineage carries me back to Charlemagne.
This one is not going to fall your preferred way: for the children of Heribert II (Renaud not among them) see Christian Settipani, *La préhistoire des Capétiens 481 - 987* (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993), pp 223-230 and Michel Bur, *La formation du comté de Champagne v. 950 - v. 1150*, Mémoires des Annales de l'Est 54 (Nancy, 1977), appendix I, pp 507-513. For the origins of Renaud, count of Roucy see the latter, pp 134-139 & table 13, and the sources cited.
According to ES III, 675A (which does not identify his father, & cites Bur along with sources he also used) your Renaud occurs as early as 923, built the château at Roucy in 948, and died on 10 May 967 - where did you find the date 15 March 973? Bur suggests he was son of another Renaud, and either a half-brother of count Waldricus (Gaudry), whose son Guy was count of Soissons from 974 to 995, or related to the counts of Anjou.
Perhaps Todd Farmerie will comment on whether there is any evidence that the elder Renaud came from Denmark.
- - - later post on the next day (1 Dec 2000) - - -
The claim that the elder Renaud was a Dane depends on identifying him with the Viking raider Ragenold, who according to the annalist Flodoard was invading France at about the same time as Rollo of Normandy. I'm not sure what the most recent opinions are regarding this possible identification.
Stewart Baldwin
The following post to SGM, 2 Dec 2000, by Christian Settipani (a noted French genealogist) suggests an earlier Renaud, with an Anjou connection, as father of Renaud:
From: Settipani ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)-internet.fr) Subject: Re : Renaud de Roucy
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval Date: 2000-12-02 06:58:28 PST
I have examined lenghtly the family of this person in my paper : 'Les comtes d'Anjou et leurs alliances', in Family Trees and the Roots of Politics, ed. K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Woodbridge, 1997, p. 211-267, at p. 222-225. I think that the equivalence Renaud of Roucy / Ragenold the Vikink is a false one and that there is no link between the two. Renaud de Roucy is probably the son of another Renaud, named from 924 to 941 in Anjou, and perhaps count of Soissons. This first Renaud could be a nephew of Fulk I of Anjou (+ 942).

GIVN Renaud de
SURN Roucy
AFN FLHB-80
DATE 9 SEP 2000
TIME 13:15:34

"Ancestral Roots. . ." (151:19) states: "He is called the 8th son ofHERBERT II, Count of Vermondois, but is not so given by Pere Anselme;though Anselme does give Hugh, Archbiship of Rheims, as a son ofHERBERT II (Saillot, cit.)

"Ancestral Roots. . ." (151:19) states: "He is called the 8th son ofHERBERT II, Count of Vermondois, but is not so given by Pere Anselme;though Anselme does give Hugh, Archbiship of Rheims, as a son ofHERBERT II (Saillot, cit.)

#Générale##Générale#La.filiation avec ses parents reste à vérifier :
attesté comme 8ème fils par Weis' "Ancestral Roots..."(151:19).
Profession : Comte de Roucy et de Reims.
Décès : ou 10 Mai 967 (?)

{geni:about_me} http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020517&tree=LEO

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20FRANCE.htm#RagenoldRoucydied967

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaud_of_Roucy

MEDIEVAL LANDS
Two brothers, parents not known.

1. RAGENOLD [Renaud] (-10 May 967, bur Abbaye de Saint-Rémy). A Viking, he may have been installed originally as military chief at Reims after Artaud was restored as archbishop in 946. He constructed a fort at Roucy between 947 and 953, and supported King Lothaire on his expedition to Aquitaine in 955[1023]. Comte de Roucy. Flodoard names "Ragenaldus comes et Dodo frater ipsius" in 947[1024]. "Rainaldus Remensis comitis" subscribed a charter dated to [948/54] relating to the foundation of the abbey of Charlieu[1025].

m ALBERADE, daughter of GISELBERT Duke of Lotharingia & his wife Gerberga of Germany ([929/30]-, bur Abbaye de Saint-Rémy). "Mathilde et Alberada" are named as daughters of "Gerberga" in the Continuator of Flodoard, which specifies that Alberada was mother of Ermentrudis but does not name Alberada's husband[1026]. Two epitaphs in the church of Saint-Rémy, Marly relate to "Ragenolde" and "Albrada", although neither refers to each other[1027]. Bouchard highlights the absence of proof that the husband of Alberade of Lotharingia was Ragenold Comte de Roucy[1028]. She is named in a letter to Poppo of Stablo[1029]. Count Ragenold & his wife had [four] children. Their parentage is deduced by a combined reading of the different sources which refer to them. None of these sources name both parents, so the affiliation is not without all doubt. Comte Renaud & his wife had four children:

a) ERMENTRUDE ([947/52]-[5 Oct 1002/1004]). "Ermentrudis" is named as daughter of "Alberada filia …Gerbergæ" in the Continuator of Flodoard, which does not name either her father or her husband but specifies that Ermentrudis was the mother of Agnes (Ctss de Poitou)[1030], the latter naming both her parents in charters[1031]. Her birth date range is estimated on the basis of her son by her first marriage being named in 971. "Ermentrudis conjuge sua" consented to the donation of land "in Aponiaco villa" by "Albericus comes Matisconensis" to Cluny by charter dated 14 Jan 971[1032]. The date of her first marriage is indicated by her absence from the charter of "Albericus comes Matisconensis" dated Mar 966[1033]. The genealogy of the Comtes de Mâcon, included in the cartulary of Saint-Vincent de Mâcon, records the marriage of "dominus Guillelmus comes" with the wife of "Albericus filius Leotaldi comitis"[1034]. Rodulfus Glaber states that "Willemus, Henrici ducis priuignus, Adalberti Longobardorum ducis filius" married the sister of "Brunone Lingonensi episcopo" who supported him in his rebellion against the king [Robert II][1035]. Ermentrude's date of death is indicated by the Chronicle of St Bénigne de Dijon which records a donation by "Otto comes cognomento Willelmus" with "filii eius Rainaldi" dated 1004 "pro anima Hinrici Ducis, qui eum loco filii adoptavit et genitricis sue Gerberge uxoris predicti Ducis, ac filii sui Widonis et Hermintrudis coniugis"[1036]. m firstly (before 971) AUBRY [II] Comte de Mâcon, son of LETAUD Comte de Mâcon & his first wife Ermengarde [de Chalon] ([935/40]-after 17 Nov [before 981/82][1037]). m secondly (before [981/82]) as his first wife, OTHON GUILLAUME Comte de Mâcon et de Nevers [Bourgogne-Comté], son of ADALBERTO associate-King of Italy & his wife Gerberge de Chalon ([960/2]-Dijon 21 Sep 1026).

b) GISELBERT ([948/55]-[19 Apr 991/1000], maybe 997, bur Abbaye de Saint-Rémy). The Acta Concilii Remensis ad Sanctum Basolum (dated to 991) quotes Bruno Bishop of Langres referring to "unicum fratrem meum comitem Gislebertum…"[1038]. Comte de Roucy. Vicomte de Reims.

- see below.

c) daughter . The Genealogia Comitum Flandriæ mentions "filiam Rainoldi comitis Remorum", without naming her, as wife of "Frotmundus"[1039]. The Chronicon Sancti Petri Vivi Senonensis records that “Frotmundus” married “filiam Rainaldi Remoru Comitis”[1040]. While it is not certain that this indicates Renaud de Roucy, Reims was one of his early bases and no other "Comte de Reims" has been identified. m FROMOND [II] Comte de Sens, son of RENARD [I] Comte de Sens & his wife --- (-1012).

d) BRUNO ([955/56]-29 Jan 1016). His parentage is deduced from Rodulfus Glaber stating that "Willemus, Henrici ducis priuignus, Adalberti Longobardorum ducis filius" married the sister of "Brunone Lingonensi episcopo", when recording that the latter supported his brother-in-law in the latter's rebellion against the king [Robert II][1041]. Cleric at Reims. The Chronicle of St Bénigne de Dijon records that King Lothar installed "Brunoni Remensis Ecclesie clerico…suo vero parenti propinquitate consanguinitatis" as bishop of Langres in 980[1042], King Lothar being the uterine half-brother of Bruno's mother. The Acta Concilii Remensis ad Sanctum Basolum quotes Bruno Bishop of Langres referring to "unicum fratrem meum comitem Gislebertum, meumque consobrinum comitem Guidonem"[1043], although the latter has not been identified. His necrology records the death of "Brunonis episcopi Lingonice" aged 60 after 36 years in his bishopric but does not specify his date of death[1044].

2. DODO (-947 or after). Flodoard names "Ragenaldus comes et Dodo frater ipsius" in 947[1045].

-----------------------------

WIKIPEDIA (Eng)

Renaud or Ragenold, Count of Roucy (b: abt 920 or 931 - d: 10 May 967). Known as a Viking who became the military chief of Reims after the restoration of Artald of Reims. He'd built a fort at Roucy between late 940s and early 950s and supported young King Lothair of France in the expedition at Aquitaine and the siege of Poitiers. Renaud became the Count of Roucy around or before 955 by King Lothair.

He married Alberade of Lorraine, daughter of Gilbert, Duke of Lorraine around 945 and had four children:

* Ermentrude (married firstly to Aubry II of Mâcon, secondly to Otto-William, Count of Burgundy)

* Giselbert (Gilbert of Roucy) who succeeded his father as Count of Roucy in May 967.

* Unknown daughter who may have married to Fromond II of Sens.

* Bruno, the Bishop of Langres.

Renaud could have a brother named Dodo according to Flodoard, but it could be a name of place where Renaud's brother was located at. Their parents are not known or recorded.

Renaud died in 10 May 967 and was buried at the Abbey of Saint-Remi.

Source(s):

* Foundation of Medieval Genealogy on the Viking Count of Roucy.

* Stewart Baldwin's thorough analysis on Ragenold of Roucy

--------------------

Renaud or Ragenold, Count of Roucy (b: abt 920 or 931 - d: 10 May 967). Known as a Viking who became the military chief of Reims after the restoration of Artald of Reims. He'd built a fort at Roucy between late 940s and early 950s and supported young King Lothair of France in the expedition at Aquitaine and the siege of Poitiers. Renaud became the Count of Roucy around or before 955 by King Lothair.

He married Alberade of Lorraine, daughter of Gilbert, Duke of Lorraine around 945 and had four children:

* Ermentrude (married firstly to Aubry II of Mâcon, secondly to Otto-William, Count of Burgundy)

* Giselbert (Gilbert of Roucy) who succeeded his father as Count of Roucy in May 967.

* Unknown daughter who may have married to Fromond II of Sens.

* Bruno, the Bishop of Langres.

Renaud could have a brother named Dodo according to Flodoard, but it could be a name of place where Renaud's brother was located at. Their parents are not known or recorded.

Renaud died in 10 May 967 and was buried at the Abbey of Saint-Remi.
--------------------
Renaud I Comte de Roucy, & Rheims 1 2 3 4

Alias: Renaud I (Ragnvald) Comte de Roucy & Rheims

Born: ABT 925 in Roucy, Marne, Champagne, France

Died: 10 MAY 967 in Reims, Marne, Champagne, France 5 3 4

Died: 15 MAR 972/73 1

Buried: Abbey of St. Remi, Reims, France

Father: Renaud de Roucy Comte de Soissons b: BEF 901 in Anjou/Pays-de-la-Loire, France

Marriage 1 Alberade (Alverade) de Lorraine b: ABT 930 in Lorraine, France

Married: 945 4

Children:

Giselbert Comte de Roucy, & Rheims b: ABT 951 in Roucy, Aisne, Picardy, France

Ermentrude (Irmgard) de Roucy b: ABT 953 in Reims, Marne, Champagne, France

Gerberge de Reims b: ABT 960 in Reims, Marne, Champagne, France

Notes [JW]

The ancestry of Renaud is questionable. I give below (1) AR, which suggests Herbert II de Vermandois. (2) Peter Stewart, who rejects AR, and finds a claim of "Ragenold the Dane" as father. (3) Christian Settipani (who I am following) who rejects the Dane in favor of an Anjou connection.

Alberade of Lorraine, m. Renaud, d. 15 Mar 973, Count of Rheims and Roucy. (He is called the 8th son of Herbert II, Count of Vermandois, but is not so given by Pere Anselme; though Anselme does give Hugh, Archbishop of Rheims, as a son of Herbert II). [Ancestral Roots line 151-19]

Note: Alan Wilson names Renaud's father as Rognvald (a Dane) of Burgundy. Leo van de Pas agrees with Alan, giving Ragenold "the Viking" a birth year of c900, which would not agree with Settipani's identification of him nor his ancestry, so I am omitting it.

----------------------

The following post to SGM, 30 Nov 2000, by Peter Stewart, refutes Herbert de Vermandois as father of Renaud, and, later, suggests a Danish marauder as father:

From: Stewart, Peter ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX))

Subject: RE: Renaud de Roucy

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Date: 2000-11-30 19:44:31 PST

> -----Original Message-----

> From: (XXXXX@XXXX.XXX) [mailto:(XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)]

> Sent: Friday, 1 December 2000 9:04

> To: (XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)

> Subject: Renaud de Roucy

>

>

> In researching Renaud de Roucy b. abt 0931, Roucy(or

> Reims), France; d. 15 March 0973 I have encountered two

> different parentages as follows:

>

> Ragnvald "the Viking" of Denmark b. abt 0885; d. abt 0925

> (I know it appears that the son was born 6 years after the death

> of the father; but this is from the same source.)

>

> Herbert II de Vermandois b. abt 0884, Vermandois; d. 23

> February 0943.

>

> There is also a Hubert of Burgundy which is I would bet

> is Herbert II, although his father is Hubert/Herbert also.

>

> Does anyone have the correct data on this person.

>

> Of course I hope the correct parentage is Herbert II

> since his lineage carries me back to Charlemagne.

>

This one is not going to fall your preferred way: for the children of Heribert II (Renaud not among them) see Christian Settipani, *La préhistoire des Capétiens 481 - 987* (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993), pp 223-230 and Michel Bur, *La formation du comté de Champagne v. 950 - v. 1150*, Mémoires des Annales de l'Est 54 (Nancy, 1977), appendix I, pp 507-513. For the origins of Renaud, count of Roucy see the latter, pp 134-139 & table 13, and the sources cited.

According to ES III, 675A (which does not identify his father, & cites Bur along with sources he also used) your Renaud occurs as early as 923, built the château at Roucy in 948, and died on 10 May 967 - where did you find the date 15 March 973? Bur suggests he was son of another Renaud, and either a half-brother of count Waldricus (Gaudry), whose son Guy was count of Soissons from 974 to 995, or related to the counts of Anjou.

Perhaps Todd Farmerie will comment on whether there is any evidence that the elder Renaud came from Denmark.

Peter Stewart

- - - later post on the next day (1 Dec 2000) - - -

The claim that the elder Renaud was a Dane depends on identifying him with the Viking raider Ragenold, who according to the Annalist Flodoard was invading France at about the same time as Rollo of Normandy. I'm not sure what the most recent opinions are regarding this possible identification.

Stewart Baldwin

--------------------

The following post to SGM, 2 Dec 2000, by Christian Settipani (a noted French genealogist) suggests an earlier Renaud, with an Anjou connection, as father of Renaud:

From: Settipani ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)-internet.fr)

Subject: Re : Renaud de Roucy

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Date: 2000-12-02 06:58:28 PST

I have examined lenghtly the family of this person in my paper : 'Les comtes d'Anjou et leurs alliances', in Family Trees and the Roots of Politics, ed. K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Woodbridge, 1997, p. 211-267, at p. 222-225. I think that the equivalence Renaud of Roucy / Ragenold the Vikink is a false one and that there is no link between the two. Renaud de Roucy is probably the son of another Renaud, named from 924 to 941 in Anjou, and perhaps count of Soissons. This first Renaud could be a nephew of Fulk I of Anjou (+ 942).

CS

Sources:

Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Sheppard Jr., 1999

Page: 151-19

Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com

Page: Alan B. Wilson, 30 Dec 1998

Text: Renaud or Ragnvald Count of Roucy

Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com

Page: Peter Stewart, 30 Nov 2000

Title: Leo's Genealogics Website (Leo van de Pas), www.genealogics.org

Page: Ragenold, Comte de Roucy

Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com

Page: Alan B. Wilson, 30 Dec 1998
--------------------
Renaud was also called Ragnvald de Roucy.

Renaud, comte de Reims married Albrade de Lorraine, daughter of Gislebert, duc de Lorraine and Gerberga von Sachsen.

He was 47 years old when he died.

See "My Lines"

( http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cousin/html/p325.htm#i7077 )

from Compiler: R. B. Stewart, Evans, GA

( http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cousin/html/index.htm )
===================

The ancestry of Renaud is questionable. I give below (1) AR, which suggests Herbert II de Vermandois. (2) Peter Stewart, who rejects AR, and finds a claim of "Ragenold the Dane" as father. (3) Christian Settipani (who I am following) who rejects the Dane in favor of an Anjou connection.

Alberade of Lorraine, m. Renaud, d. 15 Mar 973, Count of Rheims and Roucy. (He is called the 8th son of Herbert II, Count of Vermandois, but is not so given by Pere Anselme; though Anselme does give Hugh, Archbishop of Rheims, as a son of Herbert II). [Ancestral Roots line 151-19]

Note: Alan Wilson names Renaud's father as Rognvald (a Dane) of Burgundy. Leo van de Pas agrees with Alan, giving Ragenold "the Viking" a birth year of c900, which would not agree with Settipani's identification of him nor his ancestry, so I am omitting it.

----------------------

The following post to SGM, 30 Nov 2000, by Peter Stewart, refutes Herbert de Vermandois as father of Renaud, and, later, suggests a Danish marauder as father:

From: Stewart, Peter (Peter.Stewart AT crsrehab.gov.au)
Subject: RE: Renaud de Roucy
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2000-11-30 19:44:31 PST

> -----Original Message-----
> From: GRHaleJr AT cs.com [mailto:GRHaleJr AT cs.com]
> Sent: Friday, 1 December 2000 9:04
> To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L AT rootsweb.com
> Subject: Renaud de Roucy
>
>
> In researching Renaud de Roucy b. abt 0931, Roucy(or
> Reims), France; d. 15 March 0973 I have encountered two
> different parentages as follows:
>
> Ragnvald "the Viking" of Denmark b. abt 0885; d. abt 0925
> (I know it appears that the son was born 6 years after the death
> of the father; but this is from the same source.)
>
> Herbert II de Vermandois b. abt 0884, Vermandois; d. 23
> February 0943.
>
> There is also a Hubert of Burgundy which is I would bet
> is Herbert II, although his father is Hubert/Herbert also.
>
> Does anyone have the correct data on this person.
>
> Of course I hope the correct parentage is Herbert II
> since his lineage carries me back to Charlemagne.
>

This one is not going to fall your preferred way: for the children of Heribert II (Renaud not among them) see Christian Settipani, *La préhistoire des Capétiens 481 - 987* (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993), pp 223-230 and Michel Bur, *La formation du comté de Champagne v. 950 - v. 1150*, Mémoires des Annales de l'Est 54 (Nancy, 1977), appendix I, pp 507-513. For the origins of Renaud, count of Roucy see the latter, pp 134-139 & table 13, and the sources cited.

According to ES III, 675A (which does not identify his father, & cites Bur along with sources he also used) your Renaud occurs as early as 923, built the château at Roucy in 948, and died on 10 May 967 - where did you find the date 15 March 973? Bur suggests he was son of another Renaud, and either a half-brother of count Waldricus (Gaudry), whose son Guy was count of Soissons from 974 to 995, or related to the counts of Anjou.

Perhaps Todd Farmerie will comment on whether there is any evidence that the elder Renaud came from Denmark.

Peter Stewart

- - - later post on the next day (1 Dec 2000) - - -

The claim that the elder Renaud was a Dane depends on identifying him with the Viking raider Ragenold, who according to the annalist Flodoard was invading France at about the same time as Rollo of Normandy. I'm not sure what the most recent opinions are regarding this possible identification.

Stewart Baldwin

--------------------

The following post to SGM, 2 Dec 2000, by Christian Settipani (a noted French genealogist) suggests an earlier Renaud, with an Anjou connection, as father of Renaud:

From: Settipani (inapit AT club-internet.fr)
Subject: Re : Renaud de Roucy
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2000-12-02 06:58:28 PST

I have examined lenghtly the family of this person in my paper : 'Les comtes d'Anjou et leurs alliances', in Family Trees and the Roots of Politics, ed. K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Woodbridge, 1997, p. 211-267, at p. 222-225. I think that the equivalence Renaud of Roucy / Ragenold the Vikink is a false one and that there is no link between the two. Renaud de Roucy is probably the son of another Renaud, named from 924 to 941 in Anjou, and perhaps count of Soissons. This first Renaud could be a nephew of Fulk I of Anjou (+ 942).

CS

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I01172
--------------------
Renaud or Ragenold, Count of Roucy (b: abt 920 or 931 - d: 10 May 967). Known as a Viking who became the military chief of Reims after the restoration of Artald of Reims. He'd built a fort at Roucy between late 940s and early 950s and supported young King Lothair of France in the expedition at Aquitaine and the siege of Poitiers. Renaud became the Count of Roucy around or before 955 by King Lothair.

He married Alberade of Lorraine, daughter of Gilbert, Duke of Lorraine around 945 and had four children:

Ermentrude (married firstly to Aubry II of Mâcon, secondly to Otto-William, Count of Burgundy)
Giselbert (Gilbert of Roucy) who succeeded his father as Count of Roucy in May 967.
Unknown daughter who may have married to Fromond II of Sens.
Bruno, the Bishop of Langres.
Renaud could have a brother named Dodo according to Flodoard, but it could be a name of place where Renaud's brother was located. Their parents are not known or recorded.

Renaud died in 10 May 967 and was buried at the Abbey of Saint-Remi.

--------------------
Renaud or Ragenold, Count of Roucy (b: abt 920 or 931 - d: 10 May 967). Known as a Viking who became the military chief of Reims after the restoration of Artald of Reims. He'd built a fort at Roucy between late 940s and early 950s and supported young King Lothair of France in the expedition at Aquitaine and the siege of Poitiers. Renaud became the Count of Roucy around or before 955 by King Lothair.

He married Alberade of Lorraine, daughter of Gilbert, Duke of Lorraine around 945 and had four children:

Ermentrude (married firstly to Aubry II of Mâcon, secondly to Otto-William, Count of Burgundy) Giselbert (Gilbert of Roucy) who succeeded his father as Count of Roucy in May 967. Unknown daughter who may have married to Fromond II of Sens. Bruno, the Bishop of Langres. Renaud could have a brother named Dodo according to Flodoard, but it could be a name of place where Renaud's brother was located. Their parents are not known or recorded.

Renaud died in 10 May 967 and was buried at the Abbey of Saint-Remi.
--------------------
Renaud (originally as Ragenold), was a Viking chieftain who became the Count of Roucy

Parents: unknown Spouse: Alberade de Lorraine

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20FRANCE.htm#RagenoldRoucydied967

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaud_of_Roucy

MEDIEVAL LANDS Two brothers, parents not known.

1. RAGENOLD [Renaud] (-10 May 967, bur Abbaye de Saint-Rémy). A Viking, he may have been installed originally as military chief at Reims after Artaud was restored as archbishop in 946. He constructed a fort at Roucy between 947 and 953, and supported King Lothaire on his expedition to Aquitaine in 955[1023]. Comte de Roucy. Flodoard names "Ragenaldus comes et Dodo frater ipsius" in 947[1024]. "Rainaldus Remensis comitis" subscribed a charter dated to [948/54] relating to the foundation of the abbey of Charlieu[1025].

m ALBERADE, daughter of GISELBERT Duke of Lotharingia & his wife Gerberga of Germany ([929/30]-, bur Abbaye de Saint-Rémy). "Mathilde et Alberada" are named as daughters of "Gerberga" in the Continuator of Flodoard, which specifies that Alberada was mother of Ermentrudis but does not name Alberada's husband[1026]. Two epitaphs in the church of Saint-Rémy, Marly relate to "Ragenolde" and "Albrada", although neither refers to each other[1027]. Bouchard highlights the absence of proof that the husband of Alberade of Lotharingia was Ragenold Comte de Roucy[1028]. She is named in a letter to Poppo of Stablo[1029]. Count Ragenold & his wife had [four] children. Their parentage is deduced by a combined reading of the different sources which refer to them. None of these sources name both parents, so the affiliation is not without all doubt. Comte Renaud & his wife had four children:

a) ERMENTRUDE ([947/52]-[5 Oct 1002/1004]). "Ermentrudis" is named as daughter of "Alberada filia …Gerbergæ" in the Continuator of Flodoard, which does not name either her father or her husband but specifies that Ermentrudis was the mother of Agnes (Ctss de Poitou)[1030], the latter naming both her parents in charters[1031]. Her birth date range is estimated on the basis of her son by her first marriage being named in 971. "Ermentrudis conjuge sua" consented to the donation of land "in Aponiaco villa" by "Albericus comes Matisconensis" to Cluny by charter dated 14 Jan 971[1032]. The date of her first marriage is indicated by her absence from the charter of "Albericus comes Matisconensis" dated Mar 966[1033]. The genealogy of the Comtes de Mâcon, included in the cartulary of Saint-Vincent de Mâcon, records the marriage of "dominus Guillelmus comes" with the wife of "Albericus filius Leotaldi comitis"[1034]. Rodulfus Glaber states that "Willemus, Henrici ducis priuignus, Adalberti Longobardorum ducis filius" married the sister of "Brunone Lingonensi episcopo" who supported him in his rebellion against the king [Robert II][1035]. Ermentrude's date of death is indicated by the Chronicle of St Bénigne de Dijon which records a donation by "Otto comes cognomento Willelmus" with "filii eius Rainaldi" dated 1004 "pro anima Hinrici Ducis, qui eum loco filii adoptavit et genitricis sue Gerberge uxoris predicti Ducis, ac filii sui Widonis et Hermintrudis coniugis"[1036]. m firstly (before 971) AUBRY [II] Comte de Mâcon, son of LETAUD Comte de Mâcon & his first wife Ermengarde [de Chalon] ([935/40]-after 17 Nov [before 981/82][1037]). m secondly (before [981/82]) as his first wife, OTHON GUILLAUME Comte de Mâcon et de Nevers [Bourgogne-Comté], son of ADALBERTO associate-King of Italy & his wife Gerberge de Chalon ([960/2]-Dijon 21 Sep 1026).

b) GISELBERT ([948/55]-[19 Apr 991/1000], maybe 997, bur Abbaye de Saint-Rémy). The Acta Concilii Remensis ad Sanctum Basolum (dated to 991) quotes Bruno Bishop of Langres referring to "unicum fratrem meum comitem Gislebertum…"[1038]. Comte de Roucy. Vicomte de Reims.

- see below.

c) daughter . The Genealogia Comitum Flandriæ mentions "filiam Rainoldi comitis Remorum", without naming her, as wife of "Frotmundus"[1039]. The Chronicon Sancti Petri Vivi Senonensis records that “Frotmundus” married “filiam Rainaldi Remoru Comitis”[1040]. While it is not certain that this indicates Renaud de Roucy, Reims was one of his early bases and no other "Comte de Reims" has been identified. m FROMOND [II] Comte de Sens, son of RENARD [I] Comte de Sens & his wife --- (-1012).

d) BRUNO ([955/56]-29 Jan 1016). His parentage is deduced from Rodulfus Glaber stating that "Willemus, Henrici ducis priuignus, Adalberti Longobardorum ducis filius" married the sister of "Brunone Lingonensi episcopo", when recording that the latter supported his brother-in-law in the latter's rebellion against the king [Robert II][1041]. Cleric at Reims. The Chronicle of St Bénigne de Dijon records that King Lothar installed "Brunoni Remensis Ecclesie clerico…suo vero parenti propinquitate consanguinitatis" as bishop of Langres in 980[1042], King Lothar being the uterine half-brother of Bruno's mother. The Acta Concilii Remensis ad Sanctum Basolum quotes Bruno Bishop of Langres referring to "unicum fratrem meum comitem Gislebertum, meumque consobrinum comitem Guidonem"[1043], although the latter has not been identified. His necrology records the death of "Brunonis episcopi Lingonice" aged 60 after 36 years in his bishopric but does not specify his date of death[1044].

2. DODO (-947 or after). Flodoard names "Ragenaldus comes et Dodo frater ipsius" in 947[1045].

-----------------------------

WIKIPEDIA (Eng)

Renaud or Ragenold, Count of Roucy (b: abt 920 or 931 - d: 10 May 967). Known as a Viking who became the military chief of Reims after the restoration of Artald of Reims. He'd built a fort at Roucy between late 940s and early 950s and supported young King Lothair of France in the expedition at Aquitaine and the siege of Poitiers. Renaud became the Count of Roucy around or before 955 by King Lothair.

He married Alberade of Lorraine, daughter of Gilbert, Duke of Lorraine around 945 and had four children:

* Ermentrude (married firstly to Aubry II of Mâcon, secondly to Otto-William, Count of Burgundy)
* Giselbert (Gilbert of Roucy) who succeeded his father as Count of Roucy in May 967.
* Unknown daughter who may have married to Fromond II of Sens.
* Bruno, the Bishop of Langres.
Renaud could have a brother named Dodo according to Flodoard, but it could be a name of place where Renaud's brother was located at. Their parents are not known or recorded.

Renaud died in 10 May 967 and was buried at the Abbey of Saint-Remi.

Source(s):

* Foundation of Medieval Genealogy on the Viking Count of Roucy.
* Stewart Baldwin's thorough analysis on Ragenold of Roucy
--------------------

Renaud or Ragenold, Count of Roucy (b: abt 920 or 931 - d: 10 May 967). Known as a Viking who became the military chief of Reims after the restoration of Artald of Reims. He'd built a fort at Roucy between late 940s and early 950s and supported young King Lothair of France in the expedition at Aquitaine and the siege of Poitiers. Renaud became the Count of Roucy around or before 955 by King Lothair.

He married Alberade of Lorraine, daughter of Gilbert, Duke of Lorraine around 945 and had four children:

* Ermentrude (married firstly to Aubry II of Mâcon, secondly to Otto-William, Count of Burgundy)
* Giselbert (Gilbert of Roucy) who succeeded his father as Count of Roucy in May 967.
* Unknown daughter who may have married to Fromond II of Sens.
* Bruno, the Bishop of Langres.
Renaud could have a brother named Dodo according to Flodoard, but it could be a name of place where Renaud's brother was located at. Their parents are not known or recorded.

Renaud died in 10 May 967 and was buried at the Abbey of Saint-Remi. -------------------- Renaud I Comte de Roucy, & Rheims 1 2 3 4

Alias: Renaud I (Ragnvald) Comte de Roucy & Rheims

Born: ABT 925 in Roucy, Marne, Champagne, France

Died: 10 MAY 967 in Reims, Marne, Champagne, France 5 3 4

Died: 15 MAR 972/73 1

Buried: Abbey of St. Remi, Reims, France

Father: Renaud de Roucy Comte de Soissons b: BEF 901 in Anjou/Pays-de-la-Loire, France

Marriage 1 Alberade (Alverade) de Lorraine b: ABT 930 in Lorraine, France

Married: 945 4

Children:

Giselbert Comte de Roucy, & Rheims b: ABT 951 in Roucy, Aisne, Picardy, France

Ermentrude (Irmgard) de Roucy b: ABT 953 in Reims, Marne, Champagne, France

Gerberge de Reims b: ABT 960 in Reims, Marne, Champagne, France

Notes [JW]

The ancestry of Renaud is questionable. I give below (1) AR, which suggests Herbert II de Vermandois. (2) Peter Stewart, who rejects AR, and finds a claim of "Ragenold the Dane" as father. (3) Christian Settipani (who I am following) who rejects the Dane in favor of an Anjou connection.

Alberade of Lorraine, m. Renaud, d. 15 Mar 973, Count of Rheims and Roucy. (He is called the 8th son of Herbert II, Count of Vermandois, but is not so given by Pere Anselme; though Anselme does give Hugh, Archbishop of Rheims, as a son of Herbert II). [Ancestral Roots line 151-19]

Note: Alan Wilson names Renaud's father as Rognvald (a Dane) of Burgundy. Leo van de Pas agrees with Alan, giving Ragenold "the Viking" a birth year of c900, which would not agree with Settipani's identification of him nor his ancestry, so I am omitting it.

----------------------

The following post to SGM, 30 Nov 2000, by Peter Stewart, refutes Herbert de Vermandois as father of Renaud, and, later, suggests a Danish marauder as father:

From: Stewart, Peter ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX))

Subject: RE: Renaud de Roucy

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Date: 2000-11-30 19:44:31 PST

-----Original Message-----

From: (XXXXX@XXXX.XXX) [mailto:(XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)]

Sent: Friday, 1 December 2000 9:04

To: (XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)

Subject: Renaud de Roucy

In researching Renaud de Roucy b. abt 0931, Roucy(or

Reims), France; d. 15 March 0973 I have encountered two

different parentages as follows:

Ragnvald "the Viking" of Denmark b. abt 0885; d. abt 0925

(I know it appears that the son was born 6 years after the death

of the father; but this is from the same source.)

Herbert II de Vermandois b. abt 0884, Vermandois; d. 23

February 0943.

There is also a Hubert of Burgundy which is I would bet

is Herbert II, although his father is Hubert/Herbert also.

Does anyone have the correct data on this person.

Of course I hope the correct parentage is Herbert II

since his lineage carries me back to Charlemagne.

This one is not going to fall your preferred way: for the children of Heribert II (Renaud not among them) see Christian Settipani, *La préhistoire des Capétiens 481 - 987* (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993), pp 223-230 and Michel Bur, *La formation du comté de Champagne v. 950 - v. 1150*, Mémoires des Annales de l'Est 54 (Nancy, 1977), appendix I, pp 507-513. For the origins of Renaud, count of Roucy see the latter, pp 134-139 & table 13, and the sources cited.

According to ES III, 675A (which does not identify his father, & cites Bur along with sources he also used) your Renaud occurs as early as 923, built the château at Roucy in 948, and died on 10 May 967 - where did you find the date 15 March 973? Bur suggests he was son of another Renaud, and either a half-brother of count Waldricus (Gaudry), whose son Guy was count of Soissons from 974 to 995, or related to the counts of Anjou.

Perhaps Todd Farmerie will comment on whether there is any evidence that the elder Renaud came from Denmark.

Peter Stewart

- - - later post on the next day (1 Dec 2000) - - -

The claim that the elder Renaud was a Dane depends on identifying him with the Viking raider Ragenold, who according to the Annalist Flodoard was invading France at about the same time as Rollo of Normandy. I'm not sure what the most recent opinions are regarding this possible identification.

Stewart Baldwin

--------------------

The following post to SGM, 2 Dec 2000, by Christian Settipani (a noted French genealogist) suggests an earlier Renaud, with an Anjou connection, as father of Renaud:

From: Settipani ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)-internet.fr)

Subject: Re : Renaud de Roucy

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Date: 2000-12-02 06:58:28 PST

I have examined lenghtly the family of this person in my paper : 'Les comtes d'Anjou et leurs alliances', in Family Trees and the Roots of Politics, ed. K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Woodbridge, 1997, p. 211-267, at p. 222-225. I think that the equivalence Renaud of Roucy / Ragenold the Vikink is a false one and that there is no link between the two. Renaud de Roucy is probably the son of another Renaud, named from 924 to 941 in Anjou, and perhaps count of Soissons. This first Renaud could be a nephew of Fulk I of Anjou (+ 942).

CS

Sources:

Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Sheppard Jr., 1999

Page: 151-19

Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com

Page: Alan B. Wilson, 30 Dec 1998

Text: Renaud or Ragnvald Count of Roucy

Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com

Page: Peter Stewart, 30 Nov 2000

Title: Leo's Genealogics Website (Leo van de Pas), www.genealogics.org

Page: Ragenold, Comte de Roucy

Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com

Page: Alan B. Wilson, 30 Dec 1998 -------------------- Renaud was also called Ragnvald de Roucy.

Renaud, comte de Reims married Albrade de Lorraine, daughter of Gislebert, duc de Lorraine and Gerberga von Sachsen.

He was 47 years old when he died.

See "My Lines"

( http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cousin/html/p325.htm#i7077 )

from Compiler: R. B. Stewart, Evans, GA

( http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cousin/html/index.htm )

======
The ancestry of Renaud is questionable. I give below (1) AR, which suggests Herbert II de Vermandois. (2) Peter Stewart, who rejects AR, and finds a claim of "Ragenold the Dane" as father. (3) Christian Settipani (who I am following) who rejects the Dane in favor of an Anjou connection.

Alberade of Lorraine, m. Renaud, d. 15 Mar 973, Count of Rheims and Roucy. (He is called the 8th son of Herbert II, Count of Vermandois, but is not so given by Pere Anselme; though Anselme does give Hugh, Archbishop of Rheims, as a son of Herbert II). [Ancestral Roots line 151-19]

Note: Alan Wilson names Renaud's father as Rognvald (a Dane) of Burgundy. Leo van de Pas agrees with Alan, giving Ragenold "the Viking" a birth year of c900, which would not agree with Settipani's identification of him nor his ancestry, so I am omitting it.

----------------------

The following post to SGM, 30 Nov 2000, by Peter Stewart, refutes Herbert de Vermandois as father of Renaud, and, later, suggests a Danish marauder as father:

From: Stewart, Peter (Peter.Stewart AT crsrehab.gov.au) Subject: RE: Renaud de Roucy Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval Date: 2000-11-30 19:44:31 PST

-----Original Message----- From: GRHaleJr AT cs.com [mailto:GRHaleJr AT cs.com] Sent: Friday, 1 December 2000 9:04 To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L AT rootsweb.com Subject: Renaud de Roucy

In researching Renaud de Roucy b. abt 0931, Roucy(or Reims), France; d. 15 March 0973 I have encountered two different parentages as follows:

Ragnvald "the Viking" of Denmark b. abt 0885; d. abt 0925 (I know it appears that the son was born 6 years after the death of the father; but this is from the same source.)

Herbert II de Vermandois b. abt 0884, Vermandois; d. 23 February 0943.

There is also a Hubert of Burgundy which is I would bet is Herbert II, although his father is Hubert/Herbert also.

Does anyone have the correct data on this person.

Of course I hope the correct parentage is Herbert II since his lineage carries me back to Charlemagne.

This one is not going to fall your preferred way: for the children of Heribert II (Renaud not among them) see Christian Settipani, *La préhistoire des Capétiens 481 - 987* (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993), pp 223-230 and Michel Bur, *La formation du comté de Champagne v. 950 - v. 1150*, Mémoires des Annales de l'Est 54 (Nancy, 1977), appendix I, pp 507-513. For the origins of Renaud, count of Roucy see the latter, pp 134-139 & table 13, and the sources cited.

According to ES III, 675A (which does not identify his father, & cites Bur along with sources he also used) your Renaud occurs as early as 923, built the château at Roucy in 948, and died on 10 May 967 - where did you find the date 15 March 973? Bur suggests he was son of another Renaud, and either a half-brother of count Waldricus (Gaudry), whose son Guy was count of Soissons from 974 to 995, or related to the counts of Anjou.

Perhaps Todd Farmerie will comment on whether there is any evidence that the elder Renaud came from Denmark.

Peter Stewart

- - - later post on the next day (1 Dec 2000) - - -

The claim that the elder Renaud was a Dane depends on identifying him with the Viking raider Ragenold, who according to the annalist Flodoard was invading France at about the same time as Rollo of Normandy. I'm not sure what the most recent opinions are regarding this possible identification.

Stewart Baldwin

--------------------

The following post to SGM, 2 Dec 2000, by Christian Settipani (a noted French genealogist) suggests an earlier Renaud, with an Anjou connection, as father of Renaud:

From: Settipani (inapit AT club-internet.fr) Subject: Re : Renaud de Roucy Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval Date: 2000-12-02 06:58:28 PST

I have examined lenghtly the family of this person in my paper : 'Les comtes d'Anjou et leurs alliances', in Family Trees and the Roots of Politics, ed. K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Woodbridge, 1997, p. 211-267, at p. 222-225. I think that the equivalence Renaud of Roucy / Ragenold the Vikink is a false one and that there is no link between the two. Renaud de Roucy is probably the son of another Renaud, named from 924 to 941 in Anjou, and perhaps count of Soissons. This first Renaud could be a nephew of Fulk I of Anjou (+ 942).

CS

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I01172 -------------------- Renaud or Ragenold, Count of Roucy (b: abt 920 or 931 - d: 10 May 967). Known as a Viking who became the military chief of Reims after the restoration of Artald of Reims. He'd built a fort at Roucy between late 940s and early 950s and supported young King Lothair of France in the expedition at Aquitaine and the siege of Poitiers. Renaud became the Count of Roucy around or before 955 by King Lothair.

He married Alberade of Lorraine, daughter of Gilbert, Duke of Lorraine around 945 and had four children:

Ermentrude (married firstly to Aubry II of Mâcon, secondly to Otto-William, Count of Burgundy) Giselbert (Gilbert of Roucy) who succeeded his father as Count of Roucy in May 967. Unknown daughter who may have married to Fromond II of Sens. Bruno, the Bishop of Langres. Renaud could have a brother named Dodo according to Flodoard, but it could be a name of place where Renaud's brother was located. Their parents are not known or recorded.

Renaud died in 10 May 967 and was buried at the Abbey of Saint-Remi.

-------------------- Renaud or Ragenold, Count of Roucy (b: abt 920 or 931 - d: 10 May 967). Known as a Viking who became the military chief of Reims after the restoration of Artald of Reims. He'd built a fort at Roucy between late 940s and early 950s and supported young King Lothair of France in the expedition at Aquitaine and the siege of Poitiers. Renaud became the Count of Roucy around or before 955 by King Lothair.

He married Alberade of Lorraine, daughter of Gilbert, Duke of Lorraine around 945 and had four children:

Ermentrude (married firstly to Aubry II of Mâcon, secondly to Otto-William, Count of Burgundy) Giselbert (Gilbert of Roucy) who succeeded his father as Count of Roucy in May 967. Unknown daughter who may have married to Fromond II of Sens. Bruno, the Bishop of Langres. Renaud could have a brother named Dodo according to Flodoard, but it could be a name of place where Renaud's brother was located. Their parents are not known or recorded.

Renaud died in 10 May 967 and was buried at the Abbey of Saint-Remi.

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Same Person as RIN 12472

Same Person as RIN 12472

Also RIN 11178

from "Our Folk" by Albert D Hart, Jr.

from "Our Folk" by Albert D Hart, Jr.

110898734. Grev Reinald N.NSON av Reims og Roucy (9767) was a Greve about 940 in Reims og Roucy.(9768) He died on 10 May 967. (9769) han var av normannisk herkomst. He was married to Alberade GISELBERTSDTR av Lothringen about 945.

! (1) Also AFN 9HMJP4

! (1) Also AFN 9HMJP4

--Other Fields

Ref Number: 632

SOURCE NOTES:
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/edw3chrt.html

RESEARCH NOTES:
reigned (950-973) ??? date problems ???

! (1) Also AFN 9HMJP4

Also RIN 11178

_P_CCINFO 2-2438

COUNT OF RHEIMS & ROUCY

Also have birth as bet 950 and 973. [Our Family Museum]

! (1) Also AFN 9HMJP4

! (1) Also AFN 9HMJP4

Source: THE RUFUS PARKS PEDIGREE by Brian J.L. Berry.

Chart page 55: Renaud, C. of Rheims

!Availability: The libraries of Ken, Karen, Kristen, Kevin, Brian, Amy, Adam and FAL

[large-G675.FTW]

"Ancestral Roots. . ." (151:19) states: "He is called the 8th son ofHERBERT II, Count of Vermondois, but is not so given by Pere Anselme;though Anselme does give Hugh, Archbiship of Rheims, as a son of HERBERTII (Saillot, cit.)

"Ancestral Roots. . ." (151:19) states: "He is called the 8th son ofHERBERT II, Count of Vermondois, but is not so given by Pere Anselme;though Anselme does give Hugh, Archbiship of Rheims, as a son of HERBERTII (Saillot, cit.)[Custer February 1, 2002 Family Tree.FTW]

[merge G675.FTW]

"Ancestral Roots. . ." (151:19) states: "He is called the 8th son ofHERBERT II, Count of Vermondois, but is not so given by Pere Anselme;though Anselme does give Hugh, Archbiship of Rheims, as a son of HERBERTII (Saillot, cit.)Ancestral File Number: FLHB-80

_P_CCINFO 1-20792
Original individual @P2447682229@ (@MS_NHFETTERLYFAMIL0@) merged with @P2308140020@ (@MS_NHFETTERLYFAMIL0@)
Original individual @P2447682229@ (@MS_NHFETTERLYFAMIL0@) merged with @P2447676786@ (@MS_NHFETTERLYFAMIL0@)

1 NAME Renaud /De Roucy/ 1 BIRT 2 DATE ABT. 931

1 NAME Renaud /De Roucy/ 1 BIRT 2 DATE ABT. 931

1 NAME Renaud /De Roucy/ 1 BIRT 2 DATE ABT. 931

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Timeline Renaud "1° conde palatin" de Rheims 1° conde palatin

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