Genealogy Richard Remmé, The Hague, Netherlands » Papie de Normandie (± 990-????)

Persoonlijke gegevens Papie de Normandie 

• Zij is geboren rond 990 in Rouen, Normandy, France.Bron 1
• Een kind van Richard I 'sans peur' de Normandie en Gunnora of Denmark de Crépon
• Deze gegevens zijn voor het laatst bijgewerkt op 2 april 2023.

Gezin van Papie de Normandie

Zij is getrouwd met Richard FitzGulbert de Saint Valerie.

Zij zijn getrouwd

Kind(eren):

1. Ada d' Hugleville  ± 1025-???? 
2. Gilbert de Heugleville   

Notities over Papie de Normandie

From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <(XXXXX@XXXX.XXX) >
Subject: Re: Reginald de St. Valery and His Descendants
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 00:39:12 -0600
References: <((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX))> <<0ffd01c2683e$fa03a880$(XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)>> <<(XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)d.com>> <((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX))>
Stewart Baldwin wrote:

> so I had to take the Latin below from Migne vol. 188 col. 463, and the
> English from Forester's 1853-6 translation (vol. 2, p. 266).
>
> "Nunc de generositate Alfagensium neroum, et moribus eorum libet
> parumper adnotare.  Gulbertus, cognomento Advocatus de Sancto
> Gualerico, filiam Richardi ducis uxorem duxit; ex qua Bernardum,
> patrem Gualterii de Sancto-Gualerico, et Richardum de Huglevilla
> genuit.  Richardus autem duci Normanniæ, avunculo videlicit suo, diu
> militavit, cujus dono nobilem Adam, Herluini senis de Huglevilla
> relictam, cum toto patrimonio ejus accepit. ..."
>
> It is now my intention to give some account of the origin of the lords
> of Aufay and their acts.  Gilbert, surnamed the Advocate of St.
> Valeri, married a daughter of Duke Richard, by whom he had Bernard,
> father of Walter de St. Valery and Richard Heugleville.  Richard was
> long employed in the military service of his uncle, Richard, duke of
> Normandy, from whom he received in marriage the noble Ada, widow of
> the elder Herluin of Heugleville, with all her inheritance. ...

So it is clear that Orderic makes Richard de Huglevilla the
maternal nephew of one Duke Richard, and daughter of another.
(This is certainly the item to which KR refers, as it names the
husband as Gilbert, and does not name the mother, but it is
overinterpreting (and clearly wrong) to specify that the parents
are either Richard III or Papia of Envermeu.)  Thus:

          ; Richard
   |-----------|----------------|
Richard                Gulbert=N
          ;                     |
          ;     |---------------|   2   1
          ;  Bernard         Richard=Ada=Herluin
          ;     |
          ;   Walter

Returning to his other quote:

"Gualterius comes de Sancto Gualerico, Ricardi junioris, ducis
Normannorum, ex filia nomine Papia, nepos . . ."

Walter, Count of St. Valery, 'nepos', [via a daughter] Papia, of
Richard 'junioris', Duke of Normandy.

This is somewhat ambiguous.  We all know nepos can be grandfather
or nephew, while literally, "ex filia" would meant 'through a
daughter', but ? perhaps could be 'through a female', and Richard
'junioris' is not necessarily clear as to which Richard is in
mind.  If we assume that Orderic is consistant, then we have to
conclude that either 'through a female' is intended, or else
Richard II is the Duke in question (does "Richard junioris"
appear anywhere else that would enable his identification?)

          ;      |---------------------?
          ;  Richard 'junioris'        ?
          ;      |---------------------?
          ;                          Papia
          ;                            |
          ;                           /
          ;                            V
          ;                          Walter

In summary then:

         Richard
   |--------|---------------|
Richard          Gulbert=Papia
          ;               |
         |---------------|   2   1
      Bernard         Richard=Ada=Herluin
         |
       Walter

Given Orderic alone, this seems the most likely reconstruction.

However, as I posted this morning, Robert of Torigny differs with
this:

"Successit ei filius ejus Ricardus tercius.  Hic genuit Nicolaum,
postea abbatem Sancti Audoeni, et duas filias, Papiam videlicet
uxorum Walterii de Sancto Walerico, et Aeliz, uxorem Ranulfi
vicecomitis de Baiocis."

(Roughly:) He was succeeded by his son Richard III.  To him was
born Nicholas, who became abbot of St. Ouen, and two daughters,
Papia that married Walter de St. Valery and Alice, married to
Ranulf, Vicount of Bayeux.  Thus:

          ;                (Richard II)
          ;                     |
          ;                 Richard III
          ;                     |
          ;  |------------------|-------------------|
        Nicholas      Walter=Papia        Ranulf=Alice

We know that Robert had access to some of the same sources as
Orderic (specifically, they both made their own interpolations
into William of Jumieges), and it would not surprise me if his
version represents a confused account of either Orderic's first
(second here) entry, or of Orderic's source for that statement.
(As I already suggested, Torigny's account shares with this
Orderic entry a Duke Richard related "ex filia" Papia to a Walter
of St. Valery.  One way or another, assuming that the same Papia
is intended, the identification of Richard III as father is flawed.

I say this because of the chronology.  According to AR7
(Weis/Sheppard), Richard de Hugleville was active in 1025, as
well as his 1052 participation mentioned earlier today by John.
This puts his birth no later than, say, 1009, which is just 12
years after Richard III (and likewise, 11 years before Richard II
married Papia).  Likewise, he was probably the younger son (based
on how Orderic lists them, and his need to be given Hugleville,
while Bernard seems to have inherited the family posessions at
St. Valery).  Thus Gulbert and Papia must have married by about
1005.  This is not inconsistant with another date given by AR7,
that Gulbert is found in a document of 1011.  This would put
Papia's birth no later than, say, 990.  The question, then, is
not whether Papia was daughter of Richard III or of Richard II
and Papia of Envermeu, but rather "what were they thinking?"
Richard II, himself born 978, he could not have been father of a
girl born 990 or before, nor grandfather of a man active in 1025.
  (FWIW, AR7 cites Searle's Predatory kinship and Douglas'
William the C for this information.  I would appreciate someone
confirming these dates, presumably from Searle.)

Orderic's Richard 'junioris' _must_ have been Richard II, and his
'ex filia' _must_ have meant via a female line, and his 'nepos'
must mean (grand-)nephew, else this entire entry must be rejected
on chronological grounds.

1. Richard I, Duke of Normandy had, presumably by some mistress
other than Gunnora, a daughter:

2. Papia, b. say 980, m. Gulbert, Advocate of St. Valery, fl. 1011.
    a. Bernard de St. Valery, b. say 1003, presum. d. bef 1086
         i. Walter de St. Valery, b. say 1035, fl. 1096
    b. Richard

3. Richard 'de Hugleville', b. say 1005, fl. 1025, 1052, m. Ada,
wid. Herluin de Hugleville.

4. Gulbert d'Auffay, b. say 1030, d. 1087.

taf

This thread:
Re: Reginald de St. Valery and His Descendants by "Todd A. Farmerie" >
Re: Reginald de St. Valery and His Descendants by "D. Spencer Hines" >

Re: Reginald de St. Valery and His Descendants by "Todd A. Farmerie" >
Re: Reginald de St. Valery and His Descendants by (XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)
RE: Reginald de St. Valery and His Descendants by "Hal Bradley" >
Re: Reginald de St. Valery and His Descendants by "Rosie Bevan" <(XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)adise.net.nz >

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