Arbre généalogique Den Hollander en Van Dueren den Hollander » Ebles "de Poitou" de Poitou seigneur d'Aquitaine (± 967-± 997)

Données personnelles Ebles "de Poitou" de Poitou seigneur d'Aquitaine 

• Le surnom est de Poitou.
• Il est né environ 967Aquitaine France.
• Il est décédé environ 997.
• Un enfant de Guillaume 'Fier-à-Bras' de Poitiers et Emma
• Cette information a été mise à jour pour la dernière fois le 5 mars 2019.

Famille de Ebles "de Poitou" de Poitou seigneur d'Aquitaine

Il a/avait une relation avec N.N. de Mâcon.

Enfant(s):

1. Ebles 'le Fort' 'Fortis' de Roucy  988-1033 
2. Lietaud de Marle  ± 990-± 1059 
3. Judith de Roucy  ± 988-1081 

Notes par Ebles "de Poitou" de Poitou seigneur d'Aquitaine

{geni:about_me} From: "Todd A. Farmerie" ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX))
Subject: Mathieu: Parentage of Ebles, Count of Roucy
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:28:09 -0700

Jean-Noel Mathieu, La succession au comte de Roucy aux environs
de l'an mil. Les origines de l'archeveque de Reims Ebles
(1021-1033). in Onomastique et Parente dans l'Occident medieval,
K.S.B. Keats-Rohan and C. Settipani, eds., (2000) pp. 75-84.

In 967, Renaud, Count of Roucy died, leaving four children:
Bruno, Gislebert, Ermentrude, and another daughter, name unknown,
who married Fromond II of Sens. Bruno (a name which by this time
seemed to mark those destined for the church) became Bishop of
Langres, while Gislebert succeeded his father as Count of Roucy,
dying about 1000. At this time (in fact, for a period before)
Roucy passes into a period of obscurity, which only resolves with
the appearance of Ebles, Count of Roucy, in the 1020s, who was
likewise made Archbishop of Reims. Ebles has traditionally been
placed in a direct line of succession, viewed as son of
Gislebert, but Gislebert is not known to have married or had
children, while several other factors raise red flags (i.e. the
name Ebles has no prior exemplar in this family, the time from
the death of Renaud to the appearance of Ebles seems long for
only one intervening generation). This leads Mathieu to conclude
that Ebles was not son of Gislebert, and came about his title
through a less direct route.

Ebles' family consisted of a brother, Eudes, known from
contemporary documents, and two siblings, Letaud of Marle and
Jutta, wife of Manasses of Rethel found in an ancient
genealogical source from Foigny. (Jutta is not discussed
further, but while Ebles apparently d. 1033, Manasses was not
even active until 1066, and was still living in 1081 - the
chronology doesn't work, so there must be some sort of error
here, as others have pointed out). This gives us a group of
names, Ebles, Eudes, and Letaud (leaving out Jutta because of the
chronological difficulties) that can be useful in identifying
their kinship. Also of use are the titles themselves. Rumigny,
Coucy (in the hands of the maternal grandson of Letaud, and
thought to have come through this line) and Reims itself have
links to the Blois counts, and specifically the descendants of
Thibaud with Liegarde of Vermandois. This is where the data
ends, and the hypotheses begin.

The name Ebles appears prominantly only in the family of Ebles
Manzer, Count of Poitou. His grandson William II (IV), Count of
Poitou, married Emma, sister of Eudes I, Count of Blois and son
of Thibaud and Liegarde, so a descent from this marriage would
seemingly explain not only the names Ebles and Eudes, but also
the descent of some of the smaller holdings of the family. The
chronology is a bit of a challenge because of the multiple
marriages and children of William III (V), but it would seem that
Ebles Count of Roucy would belong in the generation of his
grandchildren, and a possible candidate for his father is an
'''Ebles, brother of Count William III, who is known from only one
document dating from the reign on Robert II of France.'''

Such a solution leaves unaddressed the succession to Roucy
itself, as well as the name Letaud, and so provisionally
accepting Eudes as father, we turn to the maternal lineage. The
most obvious earlier occurance for Letaud is the father of Count
Aubri of Macon. This man married a woman named Ermentrude, and
from an early date, she has been identified with the daughter of
Renaud de Roucy, and subsequent wife of Otto-William, Count of
Burgundy. However, recently it has been argued that there are
difficulties with this identification, mostly chronological.
However, a closer look shows that these problems can be resolved,
and an early source specifically states that the widow of Aubri
married William, and from this marriage came Otto, Count of
Macon. Thus it would seem that the name Letaud and the Roucy
inheritance would have been united in a child of the marriage of
Aubri II with Ermentrude de Roucy.

(As an aside, this resolution of the chronological difficulties
with identifying Ermentrude as wife both of Aubri and
Otto-William requires the supposition that Aubri married twice,
and that Beatrice, wife of Geoffrey of Gatinais, ancestress of
the Anjou Counts, must have been by the earlier wife. The author
hypothesizes that she may have been a sister of Hugh Capet.
While not explained, the reasoning would seem to be based on the
name Beatrice, a name found in that family since Robert (I)
married Beatrice of Vermandois. Other writings in the same
compilation add a generation, making Beatrice daughter of Aubri
by a daughter of Geoffrey, Vicomte of Orleans, who in turn is
made brother-in-law, of Hugh Capet.)

By hypothesizing a marriage between Eudes of Poitou and a
daughter of Aubri II and Ermentrude, Mathieu brings together the
various names, Ebles, Eudes and Letaud, with the various titles,
Rumigny, Coucy, Reims, and most importantly Roucy. (It would
also recapitulate a common pattern, in which brothers William and
Ebles of Poitou married half-sisters daughters of Ermentrude.)
The solution is not without problems - most importantly, Ebles
and his wife Beatrice of Hainaut would both be
great-grandchildren of William I (III) (assuming the correct
identification of Adelaide, wife of Hugh Capet). Mathieu
suggests that this marriage, which produced just two daughters,
may have been ended in premature separation due to consanginity.

That, then, is the Mathieu hypothesis.

taf

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