maximum test » Adelaide "Adelais" de Soissons (988-1047)

Données personnelles Adelaide "Adelais" de Soissons 

• Le surnom est Adelais.
• Elle est née entre le 954 et le 988Soissons, Aisne
  France.
• Baptisé (à 8 ans ou plus tard) par l'autorité de la prêtrise de l'église SDJ.
• Résidant:
• France.
• France.
• Elle est décédée le 31 mars 1047 dans Bar-sur-Aube, Aube, Champagne, France.
• Un enfant de Giselbert comte de Soissons? comte de Soissons? et Wife of Giselbert
• Cette information a été mise à jour pour la dernière fois le 7 août 2019.

Famille de Adelaide "Adelais" de Soissons

Elle est mariée à Guy I de Vermandois.

Ils se sont mariés en l'an 960 à Soissons, Aisneons, France.

Enfant(s):

1. Renaud de Vermandois  ± 990-1057 

Notes par Adelaide "Adelais" de Soissons

{geni:about_me} Adelais/Adelaide/Adelisa seems to have been a daughter of Count Gilbert and first married Guy de Vermandois, Count of Soissons c. 960 (he died c. 989) before secondly marrying c. 992 Nocher, count of Bar-sur-Aube. The Acta Sanctorum stated (translated from Latin): "Nocher, son of Achardus" married in 992 "Alaide, countess of Soissons, daughter of Count Gilbert, wife of Guy de Vermandois, and mother of Rainaud Count of Soissons..."

According to Charles Cawley, http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chambarsein.htm#NocherIBarAubediedafter1011:

"The Acta Sanctorum commentary on the life of Saint-Simon de Valois, based on an undated manuscript of the abbey of Saint-Claude, records that "Nocherius seu Nocherus, Achardi filius" married in 992 "Alaidem comitissam Suessionensem, filiam comitis Gilberti, viduam Guidonis Viromanduensis, et matrem Rainaudi comitis Suessionensem"[12].

However, Cawley continues, "According to Europäische Stammtafeln[13], she was Adelisa Ctss de Soissons, daughter of Guy Comte de Soissons & his wife ---. [Note from Curator: This would position her a generation lower.] It is uncertain which version is correct, but as noted below under Renaud Comte de Soissons there are indications that the Acta Sanctorum version provides a more credible explanation of events."
--------------------

'''CURATOR'S NOTE'''
Renaud's parentage is somewhat uncertain. He was either:

# the son of Guy I de Vermandois and Adelisa comtesse de Soissons
# the son of Adelisa comtesse de Soissons (daughter of Guy I de Vermandois) and Nocher I de Bar-sur-Aube
# the son of Adelisa comtesse de Soissons (widow of Guy I de Vermandois) and Nocher I de Bar-sur-Aube

'''Although interpretation of the primary accounts is open to some interpretation, medievalist Charles Cawley feels that it appears most likely that he was the son of Guy de Vermandois and Adelisa (Adelaide, Aelis) comtesse de Soissons, prior to her subsequent marriage to Nocher I comte de Bar-sur-Aube. However, French wikipedia (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_de_Soissons) positions Renaud as the son of Nocher.'''

For this reason, we will give him both fathers until a more definitive solution to the problem is resolved.

The name of Renaud's wife or wives is uncertain. Often reported as being Aelis/Adelaide de Roucy, daughter of Eble I and Beatrix de Hainault, this account conflicts with her marriage to Hilduin IV Seigneur de Ramerupt (d. 1063) unless Rainaud married her first (c. 1020) and then she married Hildouin and mothered his children. But if Renaud continued living, why would she change husbands?

Medievalist Peter Steward offers the following commentary in a 2011 post:

Peter Stewart ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX))
Subject: Re: Renaud, Comte de Soissons, d. 1057.
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 1

First, there are only two men named Nocher who are known to have been
counts of Bar-sur-Aube - the first of them was living between October
1010 & October 1011 when he subscribed a charter of the bishop of Autun
along with his namesake son (who became his successor within the
following decade), his wife Adelisa and his brother Fulco, bishop of
Soissons. This charter has been misdated to 1003 in many 19th/20th
century works, following a mistake of Ernest Petit that has been
carelessly ascribed to Jean Mabillon or Edmond Martène.

The date matters in that genealogists following Maurice Chaume have
invented an earlier Nocher (supposedly father of the first above) who is
often taken to have been the count married to Adelisa of Soissons and
living in 1003.

The early generations of the Bar-sur-Aube family are obscure - a Norman
named Achard is said to have been the founder of La Ferté-sur-Aube,
apparently ca 925/40, and the Nocher living 1010/11 (husband of Adelisa,
brother of Bishop Fulco) is said to have been his son or descendant ("Ex
his Nocherius comes Suessionum egressus traditur"). Nothing is known to
fill in the evident chronological gap between these generations, hence
the invention of another Nocher as son of Achard.

The charter of 1010/11 was subscribed by two Nochers, father and son, by
'''Adelisa''' and then by a '''Renard''' who is assumed to have been another son of
hers since the next known count of Soissons was named Renard or Renaud
("S. Notcherii comitis. S. Notcherii filii eius. S. Adelise comitisse. S. Raginardi").

However, he was not mentioned as one of her sons in the document known
as "Charta de advocatis cellae Firmitatis ad Albam", a genealogy of the
first comital family of Bar-sur-Aube. This was printed in Acta Sanctorum
where it is described, following Pierre-François Chifflet, as taken from
an ancient codex of Saint-Oyend abbey in the Jura ("ex veteri codice Ms.
S. Eugendi Jurensis"). Chifflet had actually found it in the collection
of the Bouhier family in Dijon, and it later passed with the library of
Clairvaux (bought by a later Bouhier) to the municipal library of
Troyes, now part of the Médiatèques de Grand Troyes (unfortunately it is
not yet digitised).

This manuscript by various hands, compiled over about 300 years, was
catalogued in the 19th century as Bouhier E83, and the genealogy (on
folio 6) was written in the 13th century. So much for the chronological
gap and the missing family member(s): there is no firm basis to believe,
as some have assumed, that this document is authoritative and was
directly connected to St Simon, count of Valois, who inherited
Bar-sur-Aube and then became a monk at Saint-Oyend in 1077. It may have
been a later paraphrase of some record made in his time, but more
probably it was written in the 13th century - perhaps by a monk from
Bar-sur-Aube visiting his home priory's parent house in the Jura.
Anyway, it is far from being iron-clad evidence for or against the
parentage of Renaud, count of Soissons.

Data From Lynn Jeffrey Bernhard, 2445 W 450 South #4, Springville UT 84663-4950
email - (XXXXX@XXXX.XXX)

Line 7482 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long:
NAME Adelais Alice Countess Of /SOISSONS/

_P_CCINFO 2-2438

Line 7482 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long:
NAME Adelais Alice Countess Of /SOISSONS/

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