Généalogie Wylie » Richard Seigneur de Reviers (± 1060-1107)

Données personnelles Richard Seigneur de Reviers 

• Il est né environ 1060 dans Reviers, Vernon, & Nehou, Normandy, France.
• Il est décédé le 8 septembre 1107 dans Mosterton, Beaminster, Dorsetshire, England.Source 2
• Il est enterré dans Abbey of Montebourg, Devonshire, England.
• Un enfant de William Seigneur de Vernon et Emma FitzOsbern
• Un enfant de William Seigneur de Vernon et Emma FitzOsbern
• Cette information a été mise à jour pour la dernière fois le 9 avril 2023.

Famille de Richard Seigneur de Reviers

(1) Il est marié avec Adelise Peverel.

Ils se sont mariés en l'an 1089 à Isle of Wight, England.

Enfant(s):

1. William de Vernon  ± 1095-± 1174 
2. Hawise (Maud) de Reviers  ± 1097-> 1161 
3. Avis# de Redvers  ± 1100-???? 
4. Baldwin de Reviers  ± 1102-1155 

(2) Il est marié avec Adelise Peverel.

Ils se sont mariés en l'an 1089 à Isle of Wight, England.

Enfant(s):

1. William de Vernon  ± 1095-± 1174 
2. Hawise (Maud) de Reviers  ± 1097-> 1161 
3. Avis de Redvers  ± 1100-???? 
4. Baldwin de Reviers  ± 1102-1155 

Notes par Richard Seigneur de Reviers

Richard de Reviers, Lord of Reviers, Vernon, and Nehou (all inNormandy). [Burke's Peerage. p. 832]

Richard; feudal Lord of Vernon and holder of many manors at the time ofthe Domesday Survey 1086; enjoyed a local prominence in the CountyPalatine of Chester as Baron of Shipbrooke (a subinfeudatory rank (butnot a peerage title) conferred by Hugh d'Avranches or Lupus (ie. "Wolf",so-called from his ferocity and acquisitiveness), Earl of Chester withquasi-regal powers, so created 1071 in the reign of his great-uncle of the half blood William I ("The Conqueror"). [Burke's Peerage, p. 2884 onthe Barony of Vernon]

Note: Burke's does not document that Richard was made an Earl of Devon.

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RICHARD DE REVIERS, Seigneur de Reviers, Vernon, and Néhou, in Normandy.His parentage is unknown, but he has been conjectured to have been sonand heir of William DE VERNON (a). In Domesday he appears as thepossessor of a single Manor Mosterton in Dorset. It has been erroneouslyconsidered that he was created Earl of Devon by Henry I. The authoritiesfor this are the statements made in two monastic chronicles. There is,however, abundant charter evidence that he never styled himself an Earl,that his wife in her widowhood never styled herself a Countess, and thatnone of their children, nor their grandchildren, ever so styled them. Hewas the founder (in the technical sense of the word) of the Abbey ofMontebourg.

He married Adelise, daughter of William PEVEREL of Nottingham, the elder,by Adeline, his wife. He died 8 September 1107, and was buried in theAbbey of Montebourg. His widow survived her eldest son, Baldwin, and died27 May 1156 or later. [Complete Peerage IV:309-11, (transcribed by DaveUtzinger)]

(a) It appears from a charter of Henry I to the canons of Breamore thatRichard's son, Baldwin had an uncle Hugh, who (if by 'Avunnculus' ismeant 'patruus') may be the Hugh de Redveris mentioned in a memorandum ofLa Trinite at Caen, and also the Hugh mentioned as son of William deVernon in a document (of date about 1067) in the cartulary of La Triniteat Rouen, signed by William Vernonensis and Emma his wife. In theregister of Carisbrooke it is said that Richard de Reviers was 'nepos' ofWilliam Fitz Osborn, after whose death (his sons John & Richard havingdvp.) the Isle of Wight was inherited by the said Richard, 'tunc ComesExonie.' So that this Richard may have been son of William de Vernon, byEmma, sister of William fitz Osborn. The continuator of William ofJumieges states that a niece of Gunnor the wife of Duke Richard wasmarried to Osmund de Centumvillis, Vicomte de Vernon, and was mother ofthe first Fulk de Aneio and of the mother of the first Baldwin deReviers.

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Following copied from Dave Utzinger, World Connect db=utzing,rootsweb.com:

Close advisor to Henry I.

Richards parentage has long been shrouded in confusion. Dugdale said hewas the son of Baldwin de Meules, but this was based on the misconceptionthat Ricahrd fitz Baldwin was the same person as Richard de Redvers. Ithas also been argued more recently that Richard was the son of a Baldwinde Redvers who is mentioned in the deathbed charter of his brotherRichard in 1060.

However, it is most likely that Richard was a son of William de Vernon,lord of Vernon, Normandy who died after 1077, and probably before 1089. Acharter of Richard de Vernon (grandson or great grandson of Richard deRedvers) preserved by Thomas Stapleton and dated by him to 1186 statesthat 'confirmo
donationem quam primus Willelmus de Vernone ANTECESSOR MEUS, cujus corpusin ecclesia de Vernone jacet...' If this is taken in conjunction with thefacts that WIlliam de Vernon had a son named Hugh, and that Richard's sonBaldwin had an uncle named Hugh, it shows that William had two sons, Hughand Richard.

Hope this makes sense. The Redvers and Vernon families were very closelylinked, & it is difficult to make sense of it all.

Luke Potter

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Richard de Abrincis, surnamed de Redvers, having s. to the honours andpossession of his father, resigned the Barony of Okehampton, thesheriffalty of Devon, and the custody of the castle at Exeter, in favourof his nephew, Robert de Abrincis, and was created Earl of Devon by KingHenry I with a grant of the Isle of Wight in fee. This nobleman (who,from residing chiefly at Exeter, was generally called Earl of Exeter) m.Adeliza, dau. and co-heiress of William FitzOsborne, Earl of Hereford,and had issue,

I. Baldwin de Redvers, his successor.
II. William de Redvers, surnamed de Vernon.
III. Robert de Redvers.
I. Hadwise, m. to William de Romare, Earl of Lincoln.

Richard de Redvers, 1st Earl of Devon, d. in 1137, and was s. by hiseldest son, Baldwin de Redvers. [Sir Bernard Burke, Dormant and ExtinctPeerages, Burke's Peerage, London, 1883, p. 140, Courtenay, BaronsCourtenay, Earls of Devon]

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The following post-em from Curt Hofemann, (XXXXX@XXXX.XXX),contains some of the debate/speculation about the ancestry of Richard:

Below is way more than you probably ever wanted on this subject. Iapologize in advance for its length:

Luke Potter posted to (XXXXX@XXXX.XXX) on 09 Jan 1998Subject: Re: Baldwin de Reviers: Richard's parentage has long beenshrouded in confusion. Dugdale said he was the son of Baldwin de Meules,but this was based on the misconception that Richard fitz Baldwin was thesame person as Richard de Redvers. It has also been argued more recentlythat Richard was the son of a Baldwin de Redvers who is mentioned in thedeathbed charter of his brother Richard in 1060. However, it is mostlikely that Richard was a son of William de Vernon, lord of Vernon,Normandy who died after 1077, and probably before 1089. A charter ofRichard de Vernon (grandson or great grandson of Richard de Redvers)preserved by Thomas Stapleton and dated by him to 1186 states that'confirmo donationem quam primus Willelmus de Vernone ANTECESSOR MEUS,cujus corpus in ecclesia de Vernone jacet...' If this is taken inconjunction with the facts that WIlliam de Vernon had a son named Hugh,and that Richard's son Baldwin had an uncle named Hugh, it shows thatWilliam had two sons, Hugh and Richard.
A dissenting argument on Richard's ancestry: Diana Trenchard postedprivately to me on 9 Jan 1998 Subject: Re: Baldwin de Reviers . . . Asyou will see, my quote from Bearman (1994) comes down on the other sideof the possible ancestry of the first Richard Redvers. I'll leave you tojudge the evidence. . . Richard de Redvers (died 1107) was the founder ofthe family in England as a consequence of his support for Henry prior tohis becoming King Henry I. His son Balwin was created Earl of Devon in1141 by Matilda as a reward for his vigorous support of her againstStephen. The following is a quote from the Introduction in "Charters ofthe Redvers Family and the Earldom of Devon 1090-1217' by Robert Bearman,pub 1994 by Devon and Cornwall Record Society, New Series, Vol 37. "Theorigins of the Redvers family are obscure. For many years genealogiststhought otherwise, due to their reliance on William Dugdale's 'Baronageof England' (1675-6), which had mistakenly equated Richard de Redverswith Richard the son of Baldwin de Meules, William I's sheriff of Devon.[footnote: His mistake was still being repeated more than 200 yearslater: eg DNB, iii, 34; Notes and Queries, 12th series, vii,(4 Dec 1920),p445.] The editors of 'The Complete Peerage' were aware of Dugdale'serror but further compounded matters by proposing as Richard's fatherWilliam de Vernon, prominent in Normandy in the eleventhcentury.['Complete Peerage',iv,310; 'William the Conqueror, D.C.Douglas,London, 1964,pp87-8.] The evidence on which they relied, however, doesnot bear this out, [footnote: their argument hinged on the relationshipbetween Hugh and William de Vernon in a charter quoted in Round,'Calendar', p23, no 82. The calendar makes William the father of Hugh,but in fact the relationship was the other way round ('Chartularium deMont Rothomagi, p430, no 16).] A more plausible theory had already beenadvanced by Thomas Stapleton in the 1840s but in such a confused mannerthat later genealogists were unable to follow his arguments, [footnote:'Magni Rotuli Scaccarii Normanniae', 2 vols, Royal Historical Society,London, 1840-4, ii, pp cclxix-cclxxx; and see JR Planche, 'The Conquerorand his Companions', 2 vols, London, 1874, ii, 46, and GH White in 'TheGenealogist', NS xxxvii (1921), p131.]. It was based on a charter of1060, now available in modern edition, which mentions three Redversbrothers: Richard (who died in that year), William and Baldwin,[footnote: 'Recueil des Actes des Ducs de Normandie', ed M. Faroux, Caen,1961, p328, no 147. The brothers' surname occurs only in the rubric.]. Itwas Stapleton's belief that this Baldwin was Richard's father, mainly onthe grounds that Richard in turn named his eldest son Baldwin. This mayseem inconclusive but the argument is given some support by Robert deTorigni in one of his interpolations in the Chronicle of William deJumieges [pp 328-9]. Clearly the matter must be left in some doubt, butStapleton's argument, unlike the others, is at least not based on errorsand should therefore be preferred." [Ref:http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jast/D0026/G0000005.html]

Research note:
CP Shows that Baldwin de Redvers (II), Earl of Devon, had an uncleHugh. Assuming correct use of latin this would mean that his fatherRichard had a brother of this name. It is then hypothesized that thisHugh was the same as the Hugh, son of William de Vernon and his wifeEmma, which would provide the same parentage for Richard. The Genealogyof the founders of Carisbrook show this same Richard to be nephew ofWilliam Fitz Osbern, and thus it was hypothesized that Richard, the firstEnglish Redvers/Vernon, was son of William de Vernon and Emma FitzOsbern, who in turn was daughter of Osbern de Bolbec (in a 2nd msg TAFcorrected name to de Crepon) and Emma d'Ivry. However this parentage forRichard was disproven. This is reported in van Houtz article, Robert deTorigni as Genealogist, in Studies in Medieval History presented to RAllen Brown, and I have not had the time to track down her reference forthe disproof.

In a more complete discussion of the family in the article Aspects ofRobert de Torigny's Genealogies Revisited (in Nottingham Medieval Studies27:21-7). This shows that in the generation prior to Richard, there is aBaldwin, a Richard who d.s.p., and their (presumed) brother William, sonof Hugh (the author hypothesizes that William was either the youngestchild of Hugh, or the only child, making Richard and Baldwinhalf-brothers). This last William appears identical to the William whomarried Emma, and had Hugh. The author calls her Emma Fitz Osbern, butthis forgets that her identity as a Fitz Osbern depends on her identityas mother of Richard, which has been rejected (if he has other reasons,he does not give them). The author then hypothesizes that Richard(father of Earl Baldwin) and his brother Hugh are sons of Baldwin, andthat this Baldwin is the same as the Baldwin de Redvers that Robert namesas son of a daughter of Osmund de Centumuilliers, vicomte de Vernon(otherwise difficult to identify) by a niece of Duchess Gunnor.
Now for my own speculation (entirely unsupported!). Either the firstBaldwin de Redvers, in marrying a sister of William Fitz Osbern waswithin the prohibited degree (of which the Normans tended to be ratherscrupulous) since his wife would be granddaughter of Gunnor's brother,and his mother was granddaughter of one of Gunnor's siblings, or elseRobert has erred here. Could it be that there was only one relationshipwith Gunnor, that Richard was great-nephew of William Fitz Osbern, andthat Baldwin's mother, was daughter of a nephew (Osbern de Crepon, son ofHerfast, her brother) and not of a niece (the unnamed wife of Osmund)?One could even go a step more (if William, son of Hugh was in fact ahalf-brother), and suggest that Robert, in confusing Osmund with Osbertshuffled generations somewhat, and that Osmund de Centumuilliers marrieda great-niece of Gunnor, daughter of her nephew Osbert, and by him wasmother of Baldwin (rather than him being maternal grandson).

It could even be (I am speculating on the fly, without my references,but I suspect this version would stretch chronology too much, makingWilliam Fitz Osbern too much older than Richard) that Baldwin wasmaternal grandson of Osmund, and he in turn married the daughter ofOsbert (Robert did have a tendancy to drop generations, as appears tohave been the case in the Montgomery and Warenne connections to Gunnor).[Ref: TAF 15 Nov 1996]



Richard de Reviers. "Redvers" is a later spelling. The Lordship of theIsland was valued for its rents, not its "very high honour" ~ a conceptof later times. Richard did not adopt the style of Earl, and he died on 8September 1107, not in 1140. [Ref:http://www.baronage.co.uk/bphtm-03/beaver1a.html]

Regards,
Curt

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