Familienstammbaum Den Hollander en Van Dueren den Hollander » Renaud de Vermandois I (± 990-1057)

Persönliche Daten Renaud de Vermandois I 

• Er wurde geboren rund 990 in Soissons, Cote d'Or, Bourgogne, France.
• Fetauft (im Alter von 8 Jahren oder später) von der Priestertumsvollmacht der HLT-Kirche .
• Berufe:
• Comte, de Soissons, 1025.
• Comte, de Soissons, 1025.
• Er ist verstorben am 1. August 1057 in Soissons, 02722, Aisne, Picardie, France.
• Ein Kind von Guy I de Vermandois und Adelaide de Soissons
• Diese Information wurde zuletzt aktualisiert am 7. August 2019.

Familie von Renaud de Vermandois I

Er ist verheiratet mit Aelis de Roucy.

2 _PREF Y

Sie haben geheiratet im Jahr 1020.

Kind(er):

1. Adélaïde (Aélis) de Soissons  ± 1040-1079 

Notizen bei Renaud de Vermandois I

#Générale#s:ds03.729a ; hg91.398 ; ds07.15

{geni:about_me} CURATOR'S NOTE: His paternity is debatable. He was clearly the son of Adelais, countess of Soissons. Her first husband, Guy de Vermandois, died around 989, and she supposedly remarried Nocher c. 992. Since Renaud seems to have been born around this time, he could hypothetically have been the son of either man.

From Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands Database at http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/nfralaoncou.htm#AdelisaSoissonsMNocherIIBarAube:

[RENAUD de Soissons ([985/92]-early 1057). The Acta Sanctorum commentary on the life of St Simon de Valois, based on an undated manuscript of the abbey of Saint-Claude, records that "Nocherius seu Nocherus, Achardi filius" married in 992 "Alaidem comitissam Suessionensem, filiam comitis Gilberti, viduam Guidonis Viromanduensis, et matrem Rainaudi comitis Suessionensem"[651]. According to Europäische Stammtafeln[652], he was Renaud, possible son of Nocher Comte de Bar-sur-Aube & his wife Adelisa Ctss de Soissons. This is consistent with the same source stating that Nocher’s wife was the daughter, not the widow, of Guy Comte de Soissons, but the primary source (if any) on which the information is based has not been identified. As Renaud named his son Guy, it appears more likely that the Acta Sanctorum version is correct. Comte de Soissons. Henri I King of France donated the churches in "villa…Carcrisia…Corciaci atque…Colomellæ…Colisiaci…Bruelii atque…Nantoilo" to Notre-Dame de Soissons by charter dated 18 May 1057, which records that "mortuis eodem anno Rainaldo comite et eius filio Vuidone et obsessa turre Suession. ab Henrico rege"[653]. m ([after Feb 1031]) ---. The name of Renaud's wife is not known. Two sources may provide some indication of the family connections of Renaud’s wife. Firstly, the Genealogiæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis which names "comes Suessionis et comes de Dommartin et comes de Ronaco et Manasses cui agnomen Calva-asina" as brothers ("fratres") of "Helduino comiti de Ramerut", naming "Rainaldum comitem Suessionis et Iohannem, qui fratri successit in comitatum, et Manassem Suessionensem episcopum et filias" as the children of "supradictus comes Suessionis Guilermus…frater iam dicti Helduini"[654]. It is clear from other sources that Guillaume Comte de Soissons descended from the family of the dukes of Normandy. The only way in which the Genealogiæ could make sense is if "fratres" can be interpreted as including brothers-in-law (an interpretation which has been observed and confirmed as correct in other cases). If that is correct, it is possible that Renaud’s wife had married firstly, as his second wife, Hilduin [III] Seigneur de Ramerupt. If this is correct, Renaud would have married after 1032, the last date when Hilduin [II] is recorded. This timing appears to fit with the general chronology of the Soissons family, although if it is correct it is likely that Hilduin’s widow would have been Renaud’s second wife. Secondly, one version of the Gesta Episcoporum Cameracensium (Continuatio) names “Manasses Remensium archiepiscopus, electi Manassæ avunculus”[655], the latter referring to Manassès Bishop of Cambrai and later Bishop of Cambrai, who was Renaud’s grandson, and the former to Manassès Archbishop of Reims who was the son of Manassès “le Chauve” Vidame de Reims (see the document CHAMPAGNE NOBILITY). It appears unlikely that the family connection was through the Normandy family of Renaud’s son-in-law Guillaume “Busac” d’Eu. On the other hand, the connection may have been through the previous generation, asssuming that “avunculus” in the source in question can be interpreted loosely. This second hypothesis would also provide an explanation for the introduction of the name Manassès into the family of the comtes de Soissons. If this hypothesis is correct, Renaud’s wife was ---, niece of Guy Archbishop of Reims, daughter of ---. Renaud & his wife had [two] children:

i) GUY [II] de Soissons (-early 1057). Comte de Soissons. "…Guidone comite Suessionis…" witnessed a charter dated to [1042/44] under which "Guanilo thesaurarius Sancti Martini" donated property[656]. Henri I King of France donated the churches in "villa…Carcrisia…Corciaci atque…Colomellæ…Colisiaci…Bruelii atque…Nantoilo" to Notre-Dame de Soissons by charter dated 18 May 1057, which records that "mortuis eodem anno Rainaldo comite et eius filio Vuidone et obsessa turre Suession. ab Henrico rege"[657].

ii) [ADELA (-[1105]). Guillaume of Jumièges records that “Willelmus cognomento Busacius” plotted rebellion against Guillaume II Duke of Normandy, who besieged “castrum Oucis” and forced Guillaume into exile with Henri I King of France, who granted him “comitatum Suessionis...cum quadam nobili coniuge”[658]. This source does not link the grant of the county of Soissons to Guillaume’s marriage to the heiress of the county, nor does the wording of the passage even imply that connection although such a link is the most obvious explanation for the grant. No other primary source has yet been identified which confirms her parentage and marriage. If Guillaume’s wife was the heiress of Soissons, the chronology suggests that she could have been the sister of Comte Guy [II], although she could also have been a more remote relation. She is named Adela in secondary sources but no primary source has been identified which confirms that this name is correct. m GUILLAUME "Busac" d'Eu, son of GUILLAUME Comte d'Hiémois et d'Eu [Normandy] & his wife Lesceline de Tourville (-[1076]).]

=--------=
'''CURATOR'S NOTE'''
Renaud's parentage is somewhat uncertain. He was either:

# the son of Guy I de Vermandois and Adelisa comtesse de Soissons
# the son of Adelisa comtesse de Soissons (daughter of Guy I de Vermandois) and Nocher I de Bar-sur-Aube
# the son of Adelisa comtesse de Soissons (widow of Guy I de Vermandois) and Nocher I de Bar-sur-Aube

'''Although interpretation of the primary accounts is open to some interpretation, medievalist Charles Cawley feels that it appears most likely that he was the son of Guy de Vermandois and Adelisa (Adelaide, Aelis) comtesse de Soissons, prior to her subsequent marriage to Nocher I comte de Bar-sur-Aube. However, French wikipedia (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_de_Soissons) positions Renaud as the son of Nocher.'''

For this reason, we will give him both fathers until a more definitive solution to the problem is resolved.

The name of Renaud's wife or wives is uncertain. Often reported as being Aelis/Adelaide de Roucy, daughter of Eble I and Beatrix de Hainault, this account conflicts with her marriage to Hilduin IV Seigneur de Ramerupt (d. 1063) unless Rainaud married her first (c. 1020) and then she married Hildouin and mothered his children. But if Renaud continued living, why would she change husbands?

Medievalist Peter Steward offers the following commentary in a 2011 post:

Peter Stewart ((XXXXX@XXXX.XXX))
Subject: Re: Renaud, Comte de Soissons, d. 1057.
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 1

First, there are only two men named Nocher who are known to have been
counts of Bar-sur-Aube - the first of them was living between October
1010 & October 1011 when he subscribed a charter of the bishop of Autun
along with his namesake son (who became his successor within the
following decade), his wife Adelisa and his brother Fulco, bishop of
Soissons. This charter has been misdated to 1003 in many 19th/20th
century works, following a mistake of Ernest Petit that has been
carelessly ascribed to Jean Mabillon or Edmond Martène.

The date matters in that genealogists following Maurice Chaume have
invented an earlier Nocher (supposedly father of the first above) who is
often taken to have been the count married to Adelisa of Soissons and
living in 1003.

The early generations of the Bar-sur-Aube family are obscure - a Norman
named Achard is said to have been the founder of La Ferté-sur-Aube,
apparently ca 925/40, and the Nocher living 1010/11 (husband of Adelisa,
brother of Bishop Fulco) is said to have been his son or descendant ("Ex
his Nocherius comes Suessionum egressus traditur"). Nothing is known to
fill in the evident chronological gap between these generations, hence
the invention of another Nocher as son of Achard.

The charter of 1010/11 was subscribed by two Nochers, father and son, by
'''Adelisa''' and then by a '''Renard''' who is assumed to have been another son of
hers since the next known count of Soissons was named Renard or Renaud
("S. Notcherii comitis. S. Notcherii filii eius. S. Adelise comitisse. S. Raginardi").

However, he was not mentioned as one of her sons in the document known
as "Charta de advocatis cellae Firmitatis ad Albam", a genealogy of the
first comital family of Bar-sur-Aube. This was printed in Acta Sanctorum
where it is described, following Pierre-François Chifflet, as taken from
an ancient codex of Saint-Oyend abbey in the Jura ("ex veteri codice Ms.
S. Eugendi Jurensis"). Chifflet had actually found it in the collection
of the Bouhier family in Dijon, and it later passed with the library of
Clairvaux (bought by a later Bouhier) to the municipal library of
Troyes, now part of the Médiatèques de Grand Troyes (unfortunately it is
not yet digitised).

This manuscript by various hands, compiled over about 300 years, was
catalogued in the 19th century as Bouhier E83, and the genealogy (on
folio 6) was written in the 13th century. So much for the chronological
gap and the missing family member(s): there is no firm basis to believe,
as some have assumed, that this document is authoritative and was
directly connected to St Simon, count of Valois, who inherited
Bar-sur-Aube and then became a monk at Saint-Oyend in 1077. It may have
been a later paraphrase of some record made in his time, but more
probably it was written in the 13th century - perhaps by a monk from
Bar-sur-Aube visiting his home priory's parent house in the Jura.
Anyway, it is far from being iron-clad evidence for or against the
parentage of Renaud, count of Soissons.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/nfralaoncou.htm#GuySoissonsdiedafter986

Cawley positions Renaud in one of two positions, both of which involve him being the son of Adelaisa, Countess of Soissons:

(1) as the possible son of Guy I de Vermandois, Comte de Soissons and his wife Adelia, a daughter of Comte Gislebert [of what?]--who may have secondly married Nocher I, Comte de Bar-sur-Aube.

"GUY [I], son of [HERIBERT [II] Comte de Vermandois & his wife Adela [Capet]] (-after [986]). Dormay, in his Histoire de la ville de Soissons, records that "M. Renaut…dit avoir vu un manuscrit de Sainte-Croix d’Offemont, lequel ne se trouve plus" in which "Guy Comte de Soissons est appellé fils de Heribert Comte de Vermandois"[578]. Comte de Soissons. "…Wido comes…" confirmed the charter dated Jun 974 under which Lothaire King of the West Franks confirmed the privileges of the monastery of Saint-Thierry near Reims[579]. Lothaire King of the West Franks confirmed the privileges of the monastery of Saint-Eloy de Noyon, established by "piæ memoriæ nepos noster Lyudulfus Noviomanorum episcopus…assentientibus fratribus suis nepotibus nostris Alberto Viromandensi comite et Guidone", by charter dated to [980/986], signed by "Alberti Viromandensis comitis, Guidonis fratris eius…"[580]. "Adalbertus comes, Heriberti comitis, Vidonis comitis…" subscribed the charter dated to [980] under which "Adalbertus comes…in meo Virodumensi comitatu" founded the abbey of Mont-Saint-Quentin near Péronne[581]. He visited Rome in the mid-980s: Gerbert requested "Stephano Romanæ æcclesiæ diacono" to return books to him by "Guidonem Suessonicum comitem", dated to late 984[582]. m [as her first husband, ADELISA, daughter of GILBERT/GISELBERT Comte & his wife ---. The Acta Sanctorum commentary on the life of St Simon de Valois, based on an undated manuscript of the abbey of Saint-Claude, records that "Nocherius seu Nocherus, Achardi filius" married in 992 "Alaidem comitissam Suessionensem, filiam comitis Gilberti, viduam Guidonis Viromanduensis, et matrem Rainaudi comitis Suessionensem"[583]. If this is correct, she married secondly (992) Nocher [I] Comte de Bar-sur-Aube. However, according to Europäische Stammtafeln[584], the wife of Comte Nocher was the daughter of Guy Comte de Soissons, although the primary source on which this is based is unknown. The identity of Adelisa’s supposed father has not been traced.]"

(2) Alternately, Adelisa Countess of Soissons may have been either a daughter or widow of Guy de Soissons who then married Nocher. With him, she was the the mother of Nocher II comte de Bar-sur-Aube, Guy de Bar-sur-Aube, and also the mother of Renaud I Comte de Soissons (probably fathered by Guy de Vermandois).

'''[RENAUD de Soissons''' ([985/92]-early 1057). The Acta Sanctorum commentary on the life of St Simon de Valois, based on an undated manuscript of the abbey of Saint-Claude, records that "Nocherius seu Nocherus, Achardi filius" married in 992 "Alaidem comitissam Suessionensem, filiam comitis Gilberti, viduam Guidonis Viromanduensis, et matrem Rainaudi comitis Suessionensem"[587]. According to Europäische Stammtafeln[588], he was Renaud, possible son of Nocher Comte de Bar-sur-Aube & his wife Adelisa Ctss de Soissons. This is consistent with the same source stating that Nocher’s wife was the daughter, not the widow, of Guy Comte de Soissons, but the primary source (if any) on which the information is based has not been identified. As Renaud named his son Guy, it appears more likely that the Acta Sanctorum version is correct. '''Comte de Soissons'''.

Henri I King of France donated the churches in "villa…Carcrisia…Corciaci atque…Colomellæ…Colisiaci…Bruelii atque…Nantoilo" to Notre-Dame de Soissons by charter dated 18 May 1057, which records that "mortuis eodem anno Rainaldo comite et eius filio Vuidone et obsessa turre Suession. ab Henrico rege"[589].

m ([after Feb 1031]) ---. The name of Renaud's wife is not known. Two sources may provide some indication of the family connections of Renaud’s wife. Firstly, the Genealogiæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis which names "comes Suessionis et comes de Dommartin et comes de Ronaco et Manasses cui agnomen Calva-asina" as brothers ("fratres") of "Helduino comiti de Ramerut", naming "Rainaldum comitem Suessionis et Iohannem, qui fratri successit in comitatum, et Manassem Suessionensem episcopum et filias" as the children of "supradictus comes Suessionis Guilermus…frater iam dicti Helduini"[590]. It is clear from other sources that Guillaume Comte de Soissons descended from the family of the dukes of Normandy. The only way in which the Genealogiæ could make sense is if "fratres" can be interpreted as including brothers-in-law (an interpretation which has been observed and confirmed as correct in other cases). If that is correct, it is possible that Renaud’s wife had married firstly, as his second wife, Hilduin [III] Seigneur de Ramerupt. If this is correct, Renaud would have married after 1032, the last date when Hilduin [II] is recorded. This timing appears to fit with the general chronology of the Soissons family, although if it is correct it is likely that Hilduin’s widow would have been Renaud’s second wife. Secondly, one version of the Gesta Episcoporum Cameracensium (Continuatio) names “Manasses Remensium archiepiscopus, electi Manassæ avunculus”[591], the latter referring to Manassès Bishop of Cambrai and later Bishop of Cambrai, who was Renaud’s grandson, and the former to Manassès Archbishop of Reims who was the son of Manassès “le Chauve” Vidame de Reims (see the document CHAMPAGNE NOBILITY). It appears unlikely that the family connection was through the Normandy family of Renaud’s son-in-law Guillaume “Busac” d’Eu. On the other hand, the connection may have been through the previous generation, asssuming that “avunculus” in the source in question can be interpreted loosely. This second hypothesis would also provide an explanation for the introduction of the name Manassès into the family of the comtes de Soissons. If this hypothesis is correct, Renaud’s wife was ---, niece of Guy Archbishop of Reims, daughter of ---.

Renaud & his wife had [two] children:

i) GUY [II] de Soissons (-early 1057). Comte de Soissons. "…Guidone comite Suessionis…" witnessed a charter dated to [1042/44] under which "Guanilo thesaurarius Sancti Martini" donated property[592]. Henri I King of France donated the churches in "villa…Carcrisia…Corciaci atque…Colomellæ…Colisiaci…Bruelii atque…Nantoilo" to Notre-Dame de Soissons by charter dated 18 May 1057, which records that "mortuis eodem anno Rainaldo comite et eius filio Vuidone et obsessa turre Suession. ab Henrico rege"[593].

ii) [ADELA (-[1105]). Guillaume of Jumièges records that “Willelmus cognomento Busacius” plotted rebellion against Guillaume II Duke of Normandy, who besieged “castrum Oucis” and forced Guillaume into exile with Henri I King of France, who granted him “comitatum Suessionis...cum quadam nobili coniuge”[594]. This source does not link the grant of the county of Soissons to Guillaume’s marriage to the heiress of the county, nor does the wording of the passage even imply that connection although such a link is the most obvious explanation for the grant. No other primary source has yet been identified which confirms her parentage and marriage. If Guillaume’s wife was the heiress of Soissons, the chronology suggests that she could have been the sister of Comte Guy [II], although she could also have been a more remote relation. She is named Adela in secondary sources but no primary source has been identified which confirms that this name is correct. m GUILLAUME "Busac" d'Eu, son of GUILLAUME Comte d'Hiémois et d'Eu [Normandy] & his wife Lesceline de Tourville (-[1076]).]

=------------------------------------=

French wikipedia (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_de_Soissons) positions Renaud as son of Nocher:

* 988-mort avant 1047 : Adelise (968, morte avant 1047) (2e dans l’ordre de succession), fille du précédent
* ?-1019 : Nocher (II)-1019, comte de Bar-sur-Aube (jure uxoris), 2d époux de la précédente
* mort avant 1047-1057 : Renaud Ier (et son fils Guy II) (morts en 1057) (3e comte), fils du précédent
* 1057-1079 : Adélaïde (1040-1079 (4e dans l’ordre de succession), fille de Renaud, femme de Guillaume Busac

http://awt.ancestrylibrary.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=REG&db=gwt1&id=I6835&ti=5542

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I06175
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