Ancestral Trails 2016 » Geoffrey I SAY (1139-1214)

Persönliche Daten Geoffrey I SAY 

• Er wurde geboren im Jahr 1139 in West Greenwich, Kent.
• Titel: Lord of West Greenwich
• Er ist verstorben Mai 1214 in West Greenwich, Kent, er war 75 Jahre alt.
• Ein Kind von WILLIAM I SAY und BEATRICE de MANDEVILLE

Familie von Geoffrey I SAY

(1) Er ist verheiratet mit Alice CHEYNE.

Sie haben geheiratet im Jahr 1176 in West Greenwich, Kent, er war 37 Jahre alt.

Kind(er):

1. Geoffrey II SAY  1177-1230 

(2) Er ist verheiratet mit Alice de VERE.

Sie haben geheiratet im Jahr 1183 in West Greenwich, Kent, er war 44 Jahre alt.

Kind(er):

1. Geoffrey SAY  1184-1271 

Notizen bei Geoffrey I SAY

The correct identity of Geoffrey's wife is as given by Complete Peerage, vol. 5, chart before p. 117: Alice (widow of Hugh de Periers, who d. s.p. about Dec. 1175), da. and coh. of John de Chesney. John de Chesney's mother appears to have been Alice, daughter of Hugh Maminot and in her issue heir of Hugh's grandson Walkelin (d. c. 1190), son of Walkelin. Geoffrey and Alice were married by 1180, and she survived at least until 1185. Unfortunately, the account of Say in volume 11 assumes that it was Geoffrey's son of the same name who married Alice de Chesney, and bases its chronology on the date of this marriage. Therefore, much of the chronology for Geoffrey and his son should probably be revised later.

Evidence from pipe rolls and charters, showing that Alice "de Caineto", widow of Hugh de Periers, remarried to a Geoffrey de Say by 1180, was printed by Eyton in the 19th century [Antiquities of Shropshire, vol. 3, pp. 331-333]. It is clear that the Geoffrey in question was Geoffrey I (d. by 1214) from the following:

On 1 January "1198", Geoffrey de Say and his son Geoffrey made a grant to the hospital of Drincourt, providing for prayers for the soul of Alice "de Kaisneio", the mother of the younger Geoffrey [Cal. Docs France, vol. 1, no 280]. Clearly these two Geoffreys are the same father and son who appear in two charters dated 1196-1198 concerning the manor of Rickling (Essex), the father describing himself as Geoffrey the son of William de Say [Cat. Anct Deeds, vol. 2, C2287; vol. 3, C3188].

A sequence of Bermondsey charters shows an original grant by Walkelin Maminot, successively confirmed by Geoffrey de Say, later by his son Geoffrey de Say - describing himself as the son of Geoffrey de Say and of Alice "de Chemunei" - and eventually by William de Say - mentioning his wife Sibyl and referring to the gifts of his father Geoffrey and his grandfather Geoffrey [J. Thorpe, Registrum Roffense, p. 169 (1769), citing British Library Cotton MS Claudius A VIII, no 14].

Round established a century ago that Alice was a daughter and coheir of John de Chesney [Genealogist, new series, vol. 18, p. 9 (1902), citing Dugdale's comments based on the cartulary of Coxford (Baronage, vol. 1, pp. 511, 614)]. John de Chesney was the son of Ralph de Chesney, and the grandson of another Ralph. The cartulary of Merton Priory records that Hugh Maminot gave the manor of Petham (Kent) to Ralph de Chesney in marriage with his daughter Alice [L. F. Salzman, Sussex Arch. Coll., vol. 65, pp. 21, 22 (1924), citing British Library Cotton MS Cleopatra C VI, no 69]. Chronologically, this would be John's father rather than his grandfather. (As Salzman points out, according to a Lewes manuscript, Ralph was predeceased by a wife named Emma - Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 5, p. 14 (1817-30 edn) - so it is possible that the Merton cartulary is wrong in calling Hugh Maminot's daughter Alice - Keats-Rohan (Domesday Descendants, p. 369) apparently takes this view.)

Evidently Alice de Chesney survived at least until 1185, as she and Geoffrey made a gift to Brockley (later Bayham Abbey) with the assent of Gilbert, bishop of Rochester, who did not succeed until that year [J. Thorpe, op. cit., p. 378, citing British Library Cotton MS Otho A II, ff. 36, 37].

[Kevan L. Barton pointed out the contradiction between the identity of Geoffrey's wife given in the above account, and that given in volume 5, in November 2002.

Between 10 Aug. 1197 and 8 Mar. 1198 Geoffrey de Say II executed a charter confirming his father's grant [of the manor of Rickling to Geoffrey II's younger brother Geoffrey] (Idem, vol. ii, no. C2287). The confirmation is printed in full in Genealogist, N.S., vol. xxxiv, p. 181, and shows that Geoffrey II had an elder br. William, who was living at or after the birth of Alice de Vere's s. Geoffrey. There seems to be no evidence of the date of William's death, except that it was before 1 Jan. 1198 (?1198/9) (Round, Cal. Docs., no.280).

The confirmation referred to explicitly states that Geoffrey II's elder brother William was dead, so he must have died before the latest possible date of that document, namely 8 March 1197/8 (as stated by Complete Peerage, vol. 5, chart before p. 117).
SOURCE: Medieval Genealogy

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