Ancestral Trails 2016 » Hugh II SAY (1123-< 1190)

Données personnelles Hugh II SAY 

• Il est né en l'an 1123 dans Clun Castle, Clun, Oswestry, Shropshire.
• Titre: 4th Baron of Burford
• (Alternative Name) : Osbern FitzHugh.
• Il est décédé avant le 29 septembre 1190 dans Richard's Castle, Herefordshire.
• Un enfant de Hugh I FITZOSBERN et Eustache SAY

Famille de Hugh II SAY

Il est marié à Lucia CLIFFORD.

Ils se sont mariés en l'an 1158 à Richard's Castle, Herefordshire, il avait 35 ans.

Enfant(s):

1. Lucy SAY  1159-????
2. Richard SAY  ± 1163-????
3. William SAY  ± 1160-????
4. Hugh SAY  ± 1156-1197 

Notes par Hugh II SAY

The genealogy of the Say family is difficult, but charter evidence suggests that by 1155 the Say fee, as held by Helias Say, the grandson of the Domesday Picot, had disintegrated. So too had the Barony of Burford and the two disintegrations seem inextricably linked.. An answer seems to lie in what occurred next.

In 1186 OSBERN FITZ HUGH of Richard's Castle died and was succeeded in the remnants of his Barony of Burford by HUGH SAY, who only survived him by four years. One of HUGH'S first acts as the new Lord of Burford seems to have been to confirm the gifts of OSBERN "his brother", namely Wychbold mill and a virgate of land at Whitebrook (Witebroc) to Haughmond Abbey. This charter was witnessed by WALTER CLIFFORD (d. 1190) and Richard his brother, Gilbert Giffard, Roger Solars, William Carbonel, Achilles and Roger his brother, Richard the Chaplain, Thomas the Chaplain, Walter the Cleric, and Hugh Katiford and has caused much confusion in the Say and Fitz Richard genealogies.

This is Because HUGH described OSBERN as his brother, as, by the parlance of the day, he indeed was. However OSBERN was not HUGH'S uterine brother, but his brother in law, both men having married a daughter of the WALTER CLIFFORD who was so prominent in The Anarchy and died at a ripe old age around 1190.

HUGH SAY married LUCY (Lucia) CLIFFORD and OSBERN FITZ HUGH, AMICIA CLIFFORD. Yet this does not explain why Osbern granted Richard's Castle to HUGH SAY, probably to the exclusion of his own apparent son, WILLIAM. It would seem possible that OSBERN was merely fulfilling part of an agreement struck in The Anarchy of Stephen's reign. What exactly that agreement was is difficult to say, but the known facts do seem to suggest an answer.

Fact -- Helias Say the royalist Lord of Clun lost possession of Clun Castle to a daughter who was married to an Angevin.

Fact -- OSBERN FITZ HUGH lost possession of Presteigne Castle before 1148 to Roger Port, who may have been an Angevin (his relations with Earl Roger of Hereford do not seem to have been good).

Fact -- OSBERN FITZ HUGH, on his death, granted Burford to HUGH, the son of the Royalist HELIAS SAY who according to two independent chronicles, battled against Earl Roger of Hereford before making peace with him.

Fact -- HUGH FITZ HUGH DE SAY'S daughter, MARGARET, inherited Richard's Castle and not any of his relations who, like RICHARD SAY (his son), certainly held rights in the Barony.

Taken together this may suggest there was a pact, or political agreement, drawn up between these three families in the maelstrom of changing allegiances which shook the reign of King Stephen.
http://www.castles99.ukprint.com/Essays/richards.html

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Barre chronologique Hugh II SAY

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